Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Greatest Teams of All Time-#1

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    [Ok, go ahead, tell me about how bad the players were in the Negro Leagues. I think the Negro League All-Star team playing an entire season together would have been pretty darn good.
    For what it's worth, Rob Neyer and Eddie Epstein rated that team (Crawfords) as the greatest Negro League team of all-time. I have a hard time comparing them to other teams though. I'm not saying they shouldn't be part of the discussion though.
    I am the author of "Checks and Imbalances" and "The State of Baseball Management."

    Comment


    • #62
      Sometimes I feel like I am almost the only one here who considers Negro Leaguers when talking about all-time great players/ teams.

      No one else (that I saw) even had the Crawfords in their top 10 . Was this because people here a) don't know how great this team was, b) it slipped their mind, c) do not consider Negro League teams to be in the same league (metaphorically speaking) as Major League teams, d) They only considered Major League teams when making this list, or e) it is too hard to compare teams from the Negro Leagues so I simply exclude them.

      If the reason is (a), then do some reading. If it is (e), then that is a shame.


      While the Bigs may have had more talent in general, this Crawfords team was absolutely loaded.

      Mark

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Pghfan987
        How can the '27 Yankees be the most "dominant" team ever, while the '98 Yankees are the best team ever?
        theyre equal cept 98 team had more wins and as you said, the intangibles so they get the edge
        Last edited by Bill Burgess; 03-29-2006, 11:10 PM.
        Yankees '09

        Arod, CC, AJ, DJ and Tex

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Pghfan987
          How can the '27 Yankees be the most "dominant" team ever, while the '98 Yankees are the best team ever?
          Hold up a second. Who says the only reason anybody speaks highly of that Yankee team is their chemistry?

          Every single Yankee regular had an OBP of at least .350. With the exception of Chad Curtis, every single Yankee regular had an OPS+ over 100. They led the league in R and OBP, second in BA, from a pitchers' park. The scored fifteen more runs than second place Texas (from a launching pad), and 90 more runs than anyone else in the league. They were second in the league in stolen bases, with O'Neill, Bernie, Knoblauch, Brosius, Jeter, and Curtis finishing in double digits. They even featured the greatest September callup of all time.

          With the exception of Mike Stanton, every single Yankee pitcher who played a significant role had an ERA under league average. Their ERA was almost a full half run lower than the next best team. The led the league in complete games, WHIP, BAA, shutouts, and gave up the second fewest walks in the league. They had the best rotation and the best bullpen in the league.

          The team featured a 116 OPS+ and a 117 ERA+. To put that in perspective,

          1975 Reds: 117, 107
          1972 A's: 111, 111
          1961 Yankees: 118, 107
          1955 Dodgers: 116, 111
          1934 Cardinals: 104, 115
          1915 Red Sox: 104, 117

          So, no, it's not just because of the chemistry that people put them up so highly.
          Last edited by Bill Burgess; 03-29-2006, 11:10 PM.
          "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

          Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

          Comment


          • #65
            1.) 1927 Yankees
            2.) 1929 Philadelphia Athletics
            3.) 1998 Yankees
            4.) 1975 Reds
            5.) 1942 Cardinals
            6.) 1949 Yankees
            7.) 1938 Yankees
            8.) 1930 Athletics
            9.) 1972 Athletics
            10.)1928 Yankees

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by ElHalo
              Hold up a second. Who says the only reason anybody speaks highly of that Yankee team is their chemistry?
              A good argument can be made that the 1998 Yankees are the greatest team ever.
              Last edited by Bill Burgess; 03-29-2006, 11:11 PM.
              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Pghfan987
                Sometimes I feel like I am almost the only one here who considers Negro Leaguers when talking about all-time great players/ teams.

                No one else (that I saw) even had the Crawfords in their top 10 . Was this because people here a) don't know how great this team was, b) it slipped their mind, c) do not consider Negro League teams to be in the same league (metaphorically speaking) as Major League teams, d) They only considered Major League teams when making this list, or e) it is too hard to compare teams from the Negro Leagues so I simply exclude them.

                If the reason is (a), then do some reading. If it is (e), then that is a shame.


                While the Bigs may have had more talent in general, this Crawfords team was absolutely loaded.

                Mark
                I definitely agree with everything you said, and I agree the Crawfords were a truly great baseball team. The reason I don't put them in the top 10 is because they were built on circumstances that couldn't have actually happened in the major leagues. They basically stole all the stars from the other teams for one year, because they were rich and could do so. That would have never happened in the majors.

                Comment


                • #68
                  [QUOTE=Pghfan987]Sometimes I feel like I am almost the only one here who considers Negro Leaguers when talking about all-time great players/ teams.

                  No one else (that I saw) even had the Crawfords in their top 10 . Was this because people here a) don't know how great this team was, b) it slipped their mind, c) do not consider Negro League teams to be in the same league (metaphorically speaking) as Major League teams, d) They only considered Major League teams when making this list, or e) it is too hard to compare teams from the Negro Leagues so I simply exclude them.

                  The Crawfords were one of the greatest teams ever assembled. No doubt about it.
                  Speaking for myself, A and B were not issues. Primarily D was my reason for listing them....but C and E are valid to me.
                  Another point is that the level of competition that year was a farce, even for the NeL.
                  But as you state they were assembled as a 'team' and we should give them consideration. If I were to rank them somehow, they would be in my Top 10 but I have no earthly idea how or where to rank them.

                  Yankees Fan Since 1957

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Pghfan987
                    Sometimes I feel like I am almost the only one here who considers Negro Leaguers when talking about all-time great players/ teams.

                    No one else (that I saw) even had the Crawfords in their top 10 . Was this because people here a) don't know how great this team was, b) it slipped their mind, c) do not consider Negro League teams to be in the same league (metaphorically speaking) as Major League teams, d) They only considered Major League teams when making this list, or e) it is too hard to compare teams from the Negro Leagues so I simply exclude them.

                    If the reason is (a), then do some reading. If it is (e), then that is a shame.


                    While the Bigs may have had more talent in general, this Crawfords team was absolutely loaded.

                    Mark
                    Mark,

                    I understand where you are coming from. I think for me it is a question of competitive balance. I think the Negro Leagues had many players capable of being great players in the big leagues and I don't think anyone here would dispute that. However, I question the legitimacy of the league. With players coming and going, jumping teams, barnstorming, ect it's difficult at best to rate how much they dominated their competition. In fact, it's difficult at best to qualify the competition itself.

                    What you're left with is an out of body comparison to MLB teams. Like Bill, I have a problem making out of body comparisons (like 75 Reds vs. 27 Yankees). In a way, it is not fair to both parties. If I put them near the bottom of the list you can correctly claim they are getting the shaft. Yet, it seems difficult to shaft the 39 Yankees, 29 As, or 27 Yankees out of their top spot.

                    Is it a shame? You bet. The whole damn situation is a shame. Seeing Josh Gibson or Oscar Charleston in a big league uniform would have been wonderful. Seeing what they could have done in comparison to a Cochrane or Cobb would have been wonderful.
                    I am the author of "Checks and Imbalances" and "The State of Baseball Management."

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Just revised my list.

                      My Greatest Teams

                      1. 1929-31 Philadelphia Athletics
                      2. 1917-19 Chicago White Sox
                      3. 1910-14 Philadelphia Athletics
                      4. 1926-28 New York Yankees
                      5. 1921-24 New York Giants
                      6. 1894-96 Baltimore Orioles
                      7. 1955-58 New York Yankees
                      8. 1949-56 Brooklyn Dodgers
                      9. 1932-45 Homestead Grays
                      10. 1931-38 Pittsburgh Crawfords

                      11. 1936-43 New York Yankees
                      12. 1997-2002 New York Yankees
                      13. 1906-10 Chicago Cubs
                      14. 1970-76 Cincinnati Reds
                      15. 1988-92 Oakland Athletics
                      16. 1972-74 Oakland Athletics
                      17. 1976-81 New York Yankees\

                      Thanks, Pghfan987 for reminding me. I had completely forgotten about them.
                      Last edited by Bill Burgess; 03-31-2006, 05:55 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by [email protected]
                        9. 1929-31 Homestead Grays
                        10. 1932-34 Pittsburgh Crawfords
                        Bill, I'm just interested, why the Grays over the Crawfords? I don't think I've ever seen them ranked ahead.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by 538280
                          Bill, I'm just interested, why the Grays over the Crawfords? I don't think I've ever seen them ranked ahead.
                          1935 Pittsburgh Crawfords:
                          Code:
                          Josh Gibson,        1929-31, 1937-40, 1942-46 
                          Satchel Paige,      1931-37
                          Cool Papa Bell,     1933-38
                          Oscar Charleston,   1932-38
                          Leroy Matlock,      1933-38 
                          Sam Bankhead,       1935-36, 1938.
                          When, following the 1937 season, the Pittsburgh Crawfords foundered on the shouls of economic hardships, many of their stars, moved on the Homestead Grays, and made that team just as storied/fabled.

                          Some of their stars included, with their yrs. with the Homestead Grays.

                          Code:
                          Oscar Charleston,  - OF-          1930-31.
                          Josh Gibson,        - C -         1932-36.
                          Buck Leonard,      - 1B -         1934-48.
                          "Cool Papa" Bell,  - OF -         1932, 1943-46.
                          Sam Bankhead.      - SS, CF, 2B - 1939, 1942-50.
                          Luke Easton,       - OF -         1947-48.
                          Wilmer Fields,      - P -         1940-42, 1946-50.
                          Vic Harris,        - OF -         1935-48.
                          Jerry Benjamin,    - OF -         1935-48.
                          Howard Easterling, - 3B -         1940-43, 1946-47. 
                          Leroy Matlock,      - P -         1932
                          I feel that this team could have not only competed well in the MLs, but could have won many pennants handily. Just my humble opinion.
                          Last edited by Bill Burgess; 03-30-2006, 06:22 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by [email protected]
                            I feel that this team could have not only competed well in the MLs, but could have won many pennants handily. Just my humble opinion.
                            You know what, Bill? I look at those players you gave and I think you may be right. I see Satchel Pagie on the Crawfords, who's really the only big name on that team that isn't also on the Grays. Satchel, of course, made his team better but not more so than the 7 or 8 stars you list on the Grays not on the Crawfords.

                            Satchel was renowned as a great storyteller and told stories about his days in the Negro Leagues. Looking at that, I can't help but wonder if Satchel is the main reason the Crawfords, and not the Grays, are remembered today as the greatest Negro League team.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by 538280
                              You know what, Bill? I look at those players you gave and I think you may be right. I see Satchel Pagie on the Crawfords, who's really the only big name on that team that isn't also on the Grays. Satchel, of course, made his team better but not more so than the 7 or 8 stars you list on the Grays not on the Crawfords.

                              Satchel was renowned as a great storyteller and told stories about his days in the Negro Leagues. Looking at that, I can't help but wonder if Satchel is the main reason the Crawfords, and not the Grays, are remembered today as the greatest Negro League team.
                              To tell the truth. I think those 2 teams are on about a par with each other. Awful lot of talent to go around. The same players who made the Crawfords great, did the same for the Grays. Same nucleus of stars. Already knew how to play together and gel.

                              I think it's a coin toss. Just my musings.

                              Bill

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                --Some of the big names that played for both teams were in their prime for the Crawfords and fading when they played for the Greys. Both great teams, but I'll take the Pittsburg group.

                                Comment

                                Ad Widget

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X