Dave Winfield's Place Among the Greats

[538280]

All right, guys, what do you think of Dave Winfield? He's a player who we don't talk about all that much, and I suspect is very underrated on these forums although I don't really know where his consensus rating is.

I think he's a great player, certainly. He did everything well, nothing tremendously, and was one of the best players in the game for about 18 years. That's impressive. You have lots of guys who are just as good for 5 or so years, but I truly think it would be hard to find a player in baseball history who matches the year to year consistency of Dave Winfield. He played in a strong league, according to WS was the best player in the National League in 1979, and won 7 Gold Gloves.

He never did have a season that just really jumps off the page at you, but I think that may be a product of time and place. He played in a league where it was really hard to post high numbers, and played in a hitter's hell in San Diego for the first part of his career.

I used to have Winfield in the 70s in my top 100 players and around 15th among RFers. Upon closer examination, I think I'm going to move him up to the mid 50s and time, and 12th all time among RFers. I'm curious on where others have him.

[leecemark]

--I have him 11th amoung rightfielders. Thats a tough position though.
1) Ruth (#2 overall)
2) Aaron (#3 overall)
3) Robinson (top 20)
4) Jackson (30ish)
5) Ott (about the same)
6) Crawford (40ish)
7) Gwynn (top 50)
8) Kaline (50s?)
9) Clemente (60s?)
10) Waner (70s?)
11) Winfield
12) Heilman
13) Have to think about it. Lots of very good ones.

[538280]

Right fresh from the ratings file, just updated. My top 15 RFers:

1.Babe Ruth
2.Hank Aaron
3.Frank Robinson
4.Reggie Jackson
5.Mel Ott
6.Pete Rose
7.Tony Gwynn
8.Gary Sheffield
9.Al Kaline
10.Sam Crawford
11.Roberto Clemente
12.Dave Winfield
13.Martin DiHigo
14.Bobby Bonds
15.Willard Brown
16.Paul Waner (just moved up over Parker)
17.Dave Parker
18.Harry Heilmann
19.Reggie Smith
20.Enos Slaughter
21.Elmer Flick
22.King Kelly
23.Ken Singleton
24.Elmer Flick
25.Bobby Murcer

[leecemark]

--I haven't always had Aaron that high, but it isn't new either. Thats where I started voting for him in the last round of "greatest position players of all time polls". Basically when Mays moved up to number one on my list it became hard to justify Aaron being much lower on the list.
--Hank was almost exactly the same hitter at the same time as Mays - and he did it a little longer. He wasn't quite the defender or baserunner, but he was very good at those things. #3 might be a little high (Cobb/Wagner/Williams at least have legit arguments for ranking ahead), but if I overrate him slightly it only begins to make up for all the people who greatly underrate him.

[538280]

Interesting Aaron comes up. Although Winfield wasn't as good obviously, I think there are many similarities between Winfield and Aaron. Both were great players for a LONG time, both were very good fielders to go along with their hitting, both were basically the same type of hitters, though Aaron was certainly better.

I have Aaron 6th all time currently:

1.Mays
2.Ruth
3.Charleston
4.Bonds
5.Schmidt
6.Aaron
7.Wagner
8.Mantle
9.T.Williams
10.Cobb

[leecemark]

--I don't know that Cobb vs Williams would be that lopsided. I have Teddy (#4) ahead of Tyrus (#8) myself, although I could see it the other way without much trouble. Williams is the only real contender for Babe's title of best hitter ever and neither was as special in the field or on the bases as my other top 10 players.

[DoubleX]

I have Winfield 10th among RFers. He and Waner are close, but given era adjustments and the fact that Waner had very little power, I just don't understand why many people put Waner ahead of Winfield.

Here is my top 25 in RF (note, I put Pete Rose in LF and Andre Dawson in CF).

1) Babe Ruth
2) Hank Aaron
3) Frank Robinson
4) Mel Ott
5) Tony Gwynn
6) Reggie Jackson
7) Roberto Clemente
8) Al Kaline
9) Sam Crawford
10) Dave Winfield
11) Paul Waner
12) Harry Heilmann
13) Willie Keeler
14) Gary Sheffield
15) Sammy Sosa
16) Bobby Bonds
17) Dave Parker
18) Tony Oliva
19) Sam Rice
20) Elmer Flick
21) Chuck Klein
22) Reggie Smith
23) Ken Singleton
24) Gavvy Cravath
25) Take Your Pick - Enos Slaugther, Kiki Cuyler, Larry Walker, Dwight Evans, Rocky Colavito, Jack Clark, Darryl Strawberry

[Buzzaldrin]

Just curiosity here- where do you guys rank Sam Thompson on your all time right fielder lists?

[538280]

Just curiosity here- where do you guys rank Sam Thompson on your all time right fielder lists?

I only go up to 25, and he doesn't make the top 25. If I went all the way to 50, he'd probably make it. Just at a guess probably aroud 40 or so all time is where he'd end up.

[barzilla]

I haven't thrown Winfield through my index yet, but I would guess he might crack the top fifteen (of right fielders). In fact, I think he barely passes my HOF muster when I think about. He might be one of the more overrated players of our generation. He hung around a long time, but he was rarely ever very good and was above average most of the time.

[baseballPAP]

I have Winfield in at #13 (right before Thompson Buzz). Also, since it was already mentioned, I have Aaron #2, and #6 all time. Hopefully with the time to do so, I'll be updating ALL my lists this weekend, and reposting them. Of course, hopefully usually turns to "maybe next time"....

[baseballPAP]

I only go up to 25, and he doesn't make the top 25. If I went all the way to 50, he'd probably make it. Just at a guess probably aroud 40 or so all time is where he'd end up.

Hmmmm...underrated maybe?
Top 10 in HR ten times, XBH 10 times, OPS+ 5 times, SLG% 8 times, all over the leaderboards, plus defender with a cannon for an arm. Yep...thats Sam Thompson!

[Buzzaldrin]

I only go up to 25, and he doesn't make the top 25. If I went all the way to 50, he'd probably make it. Just at a guess probably aroud 40 or so all time is where he'd end up.

That's kind of surprising, actually. Why do you have him so low, and why do you have players like Crawford or Flick so high? Neither was as good a fielder as Thompson, and neither was any better a hitter either.

Thompson really only played ten full seasons in right (same number as Flick- Crawford gets the nod for longevity), but in that time he led the league in assists twice, fielding twice, dp twice, and games played in right four times. Crawford and Flick don't even come close to matching up in the field.

Thompson was also one hell of a hitter, easily better than Flick. He was the real homer king of the 19th c., not Roger Connor- Thompson had 127 homers in 5953 AB, Connor had 138 in 7794. In Thompson's ten full seasons, he led the league in batting once, slugging twice, hits three times, doubles twice, triples once (and his single season high of 27 was never reached by all time triple king Crawford), and homers once. Flick wasn't as good at the plate or in the field, and although Crawford probably had ALMOST as much power as Thompson, he didn't hit as well for average and didn't field as well.

Thompson also had the distinction of being the first player to break the 20 homer barrier in a season (I don't count any Chicago players from 1884), as well as the 150 RBI barrier (when he drove in 166 in 1887 it stood until Ruth came along, although Thompson himself made a hell of a run at it in 1895 with 165).

I'd like to know just why you rate him so low, and so many other players who I feel are quite undeserving so high. Even from roughly Thompson's own era, you have King Kelly in your top 25, and Thompson was a far superior outfielder and easily Kelly's equal at the bat (although I have Kelly in my all-time top 15 catchers, oddly enough).

[DoubleX]

Just curiosity here- where do you guys rank Sam Thompson on your all time right fielder lists?

I generally don't rank 19th century players and Negro Leaguers as an acknowledgement of my own limitations of assessment. If I had to throw Thompson in there, he'd probably come in the 20-25 range.

[KCGHOST]

I have Winfield in the 12-15 range amongst RFers. An above average HoFer.