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The Greatest Managers

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  • #16
    Originally posted by KCGHOST View Post
    Literacy and rational thinking are rarely rewarded when confronted with strongly held opinions based on perception.
    Ha Ha. Thanks, I hope. Not sure which end you place me on!

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by RuthMayBond View Post
      Let's start at the bottom.
      #25 was no pushover, unless you asked Pedro.
      I don't know whether his pet ate spinach.
      That's WAY too many clues already
      Don Zimmer, by any chance. Is this a new game?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Bill Burgess View Post
        Ha Ha. Thanks, I hope. Not sure which end you place me on!
        Obviously ...
        BOTH
        Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
        Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Bill Burgess View Post
          Don Zimmer, by any chance. Is this a new game?
          It IS, and you're VERY good at it
          As for #22 ...
          brother, this guy was still managing until recently
          Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
          Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by RuthMayBond View Post
            It IS, and you're VERY good at it
            As for #22 ...
            brother, this guy was still managing until recently
            Felip Alou?

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Bill Burgess View Post
              Felip Alou?
              Geez Bill, there's no stopping you.
              As for #21, not bad for a guy who was beaned and almost killed in an explosion in the same year. He says never trade in your dreams for something else no matter how old you are.
              Last edited by RuthMayBond; 02-13-2009, 10:48 AM.
              Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
              Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Bill Burgess View Post
                Here is my slate for Top 30 Managers.

                29. Jimmy Dykes - White Sox (1934-46), traveling salesman after that. Came in 3rd or above only 3 times in all his yrs.

                30. Ty Cobb - Detroit - 1921-26 - brilliant mastermind, carried sub-par team on his hitting coaching, fiery leadership. Tactical/strategic genius. Ousted due to false scandal. Irreparable loss to the game.

                So, according to you these are the two greatest managers who never won a pennant?

                Why would Cobb possibly rate as a better manager than some guys who did win, like Speaker, Alvin Dark, Yogi, Boudreau, Houk, Howser, etc.?
                .


                19th Century League Champion
                1900s League Champion
                1910s League Champion

                1930s League Division Winner
                1950s League Champion
                1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                1960s League Division Winner
                1970s League Champion
                1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                1980s League Champion
                All Time Greats League Champion

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
                  Why would Cobb possibly rate as a better manager than some guys who did win, like Speaker, Alvin Dark, Yogi, Boudreau, Houk, Howser, etc.?
                  So was McCarthy "the greatest"?
                  Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                  Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
                    So, according to you these are the two greatest managers who never won a pennant?

                    Why would Cobb possibly rate as a better manager than some guys who did win, like Speaker, Alvin Dark, Yogi, Boudreau, Houk, Howser, etc.?
                    There are perfectly good reasons, but one must dig for them. There is an old saying in baseball as pertains to managers. He who has the horses, wins.

                    If you have the horses, you win. If you don't, you lose. Ty Cobb, as manager, never had the horses. Yet, he won. Over and over again.

                    I wrote up his case here.

                    If you read it carefully, and s-l-o-w-l-y, you will understand. Those others that you mention had better material to win with. Cobb's owner, Frank Navin, blew his money at the horse track. Refused to invest in the team.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bill Burgess View Post
                      There are perfectly good reasons, but one must dig for them. There is an old saying in baseball as pertains to managers. He who has the horses, wins.

                      If you have the horses, you win. If you don't, you lose.
                      THANK you
                      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by RuthMayBond View Post
                        As for #21, not bad for a guy who was beaned and almost killed in an explosion in the same year. He says never trade in your dreams for something else.
                        Don't know. Give up. But let's keep playing. I like this game.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Bill Burgess View Post
                          Don't know. Give up. But let's keep playing. I like this game.
                          He was a tough one to give a clue for, and yer good! (go back, I edited the original)
                          Hotdog, was #20 considered a giant among certain organizations!
                          Of course, he could also be windy
                          Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                          Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Some points of reference that I compiled earlier:

                            Bill James' utterly fascinating Guide to Baseball Managers makes the point it is very difficult to evaluate how "good" a manager is (was Gene Mauch a talented manager who usually was saddled with poor teams? was Fred Haney a guy who underachieved with some very talented ones?), much less quantify it. However, it is quite possible to evaluate how successful a manager is, and to reasonably quantify that. A manager gets three points for a World Series champion, two points for a league winner but not WS champ, and one for a division winner who doesn't make the series. He also gets one point for a winning record, another for 20 more wins than losses, and one more for 100 wins. The book came out in 1996, so it doesn't deal with Wild Card teams. Cox is almost assuredly in the forties, and LaRussa and Torre are as well in this system. Leaving them and any other actives aside, here's Bill's list as of 1996:

                            1. McGraw 79
                            2. Mack 72 (five World Series wins mean something)
                            3. Joe McCarthy 71
                            4. Casey Stengel 52
                            5. Walt Alson 51
                            6. Sparky Anderson 49
                            7. Earl Weaver 42
                            Harry Wright 42
                            9. Leo Durocher 38
                            Bill McKechnie 38
                            11. Miller Huggins 37
                            12. Frank Selee 36
                            13. Fred Clarke 35
                            14. Cap Anson 34
                            15. Tommy Lasorda 33
                            16. Al Lopez 32
                            17. Dick Williams 31
                            Ned Hanlon 31
                            19. Billy Southworth 30
                            20. Billy Martin 29
                            21. Frank Chance 28
                            Charlie Grimm 28
                            Whitey Herzog 28
                            24. Ralph Houk 25
                            Bucky Harris 25
                            ---------------------------
                            Others of note
                            Hughie Jennings 24
                            Davey Johnson 23 (as of 1996)
                            Gene Mauch 17
                            Wilbert Robinson 15

                            As with all such lists, it isn't perfect, but it's pretty darned good. James notes that a guy has to have about 30 points to make the HOF as a manager. He might be a tad too high with that number, but over 25 would certainly fit the bill.
                            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I'll do some top 30's of managers with over 1000 games managed. We'll start with a real basic one, wins (through 2008):

                              Code:
                              Manager	wins
                              	
                              Connie Mack	3731
                              John McGraw	2763
                              Tony LaRussa*	2461
                              Bobby Cox*	2327
                              Sparky Anderson	2194
                              Bucky Harris	2157
                              Joe Torre*	2151
                              Joe McCarthy	2125
                              Walter Alston	2040
                              Leo Durocher	2008
                              Casey Stengel	1905
                              Gene Mauch	1902
                              Bill McKechnie	1896
                              Lou Piniella*	1701
                              Ralph Houk	1619
                              Fred Clarke	1602
                              Tommy Lasorda	1599
                              Dick Williams	1571
                              Clark Griffith	1491
                              Earl Weaver	1480
                              Miller Huggins	1413
                              Al Lopez...	1410
                              Jimmie Dykes	1406
                              Wilbert Robinson	1399
                              Chuck Tanner	1352
                              Jim Leyland*	1326
                              Ned Hanlon	1313
                              Cap Anson	1296
                              Charlie Grimm	1287
                              Frank Selee	1284
                              Last edited by jalbright; 02-13-2009, 01:02 PM.
                              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Next is winning percentage (minimum 1000 games managed, through 2008):

                                Code:
                                Manager	win %
                                	
                                Joe McCarthy	0.615
                                Jim Mutrie	0.611
                                Charlie Comiskey	0.608
                                Frank Selee	0.598
                                Billy Southworth	0.597
                                Frank Chance	0.593
                                John McGraw	0.586
                                Al Lopez...	0.584
                                Earl Weaver	0.583
                                Harry Wright	0.581
                                Cap Anson	0.578
                                Fred Clarke	0.576
                                Davey Johnson	0.564
                                Pat Moran	0.561
                                Steve O'Neill	0.559
                                Walter Alston	0.558
                                Bobby Cox*	0.557
                                Miller Huggins	0.555
                                Patsy Tebeau	0.555
                                Bill Terry..	0.555
                                Billy Martin	0.553
                                Mike Scioscia*	0.551
                                Ron Gardenhire*	0.549
                                Charlie Grimm	0.547
                                Sparky Anderson	0.545
                                Hughie Jennings	0.543
                                Charlie Manuel*	0.543
                                Tris Speaker	0.543
                                Joe Cronin	0.540
                                Leo Durocher	0.540
                                Last edited by jalbright; 02-13-2009, 12:59 PM.
                                Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                                Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                                A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                                Comment

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