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Did Pitchers of Yesteryear Throw With "Much Less" Velocity Than They Do Today?

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  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Funny thing is, all we keep hearing about is speed, 100 MPH or just under that speed. Has anyone noticed, I bring this one up often but little feedback........ the change up is back, big time. Some of the young pitchers finally taking the advice of some former pitchers, you can get hitter out, swing and miss or make poor contact with a much slower pitch. In fact with the high speed pitchers are throwing today makes the change up even more effective, the batter has little time to decide. Watching this game many years, never saw so many young pitchers featuring the change up, with some that is their specialty pitch. One of the greatest Warren Spahn in a few words said it all, hitting is timing, pitching is upsetting timing.

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  • willshad
    replied
    Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post

    I hear ya, I like it to, a legend gives us his take.
    It just seems like those old timers were usually a lot more humble when discussing who was the 'best'. They wouldn't mention themselves on all time teams, and usually say another guy was better than them. It feels odd to hear Cy Young talk like that.

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  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Originally posted by dwj21792 View Post

    True. But I loved that quote from one of the all time greats.
    I hear ya, I like it to, a legend gives us his take.

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  • dwj21792
    replied
    Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post

    Lets be realistic here, just his opinion, we will never know.
    True. But I loved that quote from one of the all time greats.

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  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Originally posted by dwj21792 View Post
    I once read where Cy Young was asked whether Feller was the fastest he ever saw. His answer-"I've seen faster. Johnson was faster. Rusie was faster. And I was faster than all of them."
    Lets be realistic here, just his opinion, we will never know.

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  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Originally posted by ipitch View Post

    You can't really compare throws from the field to pitches from the rubber. Aaron Hicks threw a ball 105.5 mph from left field this year.
    There has to be a good number of throws by the stronger armed outfielders, high in MPH. Also to be considered comparing pitchers speed to some outfielder's throws, some cases the outfielder throws after taking a few running steps. Not the same as pitching off a mound.
    Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 09-08-2017, 02:54 PM.

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  • dwj21792
    replied
    I once read where Cy Young was asked whether Feller was the fastest he ever saw. His answer-"I've seen faster. Johnson was faster. Rusie was faster. And I was faster than all of them."

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  • Ubiquitous
    replied
    Originally posted by Ubiquitous View Post


    His line is now:

    Vs Righties: .302/.416/.527 in over 7,400 PA
    Vs Lefties: .253/.328/.434 in over 1,400 PA

    About 2400 PA of unknown hand.

    Against hard throwing lefties we have some data:

    Vander Meer: .143/.200/.179 in at least 30 PA
    Grissom: .387/.513/.903 in at least 39 PA
    Hallahan: .241/.333/.414 in at least 33 PA
    His line is now

    Vs Righties: .305/..422/.534 in over 8,200 PA
    Vs Lefites: .277/.356/.493 in almost 2,000 PA

    About 830 of unknown hand.

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  • PVNICK
    replied
    good old double post.

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  • PVNICK
    replied
    Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
    Compare that with how Warren Spahn's father taught him to pitch. Spahn had a good fastball and mechanics but focus was equally on a repeatable delivery, exactly the same, for all his pitches with deception in the leg kick and release point. I think current thinking would have young Spahn diverting that effort to tuning his delivery to wring out a few more MPH.

    Could be a lot of current arm trouble stems from the impact of the radar gun on scouting and coaching.
    That's interesting. I had never heard that, or much beyond that he was in the Battle of the Bulge, about Spahn pre-stardom.

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  • ipitch
    replied
    Originally posted by Mongoose View Post
    Nowadays scouts have a quantifiable standard that helps them cover themselves if they pick a dud. This would tend to filter more hard throwers into the Majors now. Regardless, the hardest throwers going back to baseball's earliest days could probably throw as hard as anyone today. Distance throwing contests were usually won by throws exceeding 400 feet. That probably translates to around 100 mph driving off a mound.
    You can't really compare throws from the field to pitches from the rubber. Aaron Hicks threw a ball 105.5 mph from left field this year.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mongoose
    replied
    Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
    Isn't it a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy? Presumably kids are trained to throw hard, because they know that will get them "noticed" or lacking same get them written off. Certainly there is much money to be made by that by those in the business of "producing prospects" be they travel team coaches or organizers or coaches or "instructors." Who cares what happens to the kid's arm once he gets past the point of being another # on the "I got x many or % kids drafted or scholarships".
    Compare that with how Warren Spahn's father taught him to pitch. Spahn had a good fastball and mechanics but focus was equally on a repeatable delivery, exactly the same, for all his pitches with deception in the leg kick and release point. I think current thinking would have young Spahn diverting that effort to tuning his delivery to wring out a few more MPH.

    Could be a lot of current arm trouble stems from the impact of the radar gun on scouting and coaching.

    Leave a comment:


  • PVNICK
    replied
    Isn't it a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy? Presumably kids are trained to throw hard, because they know that will get them "noticed" or lacking same get them written off. Certainly there is much money to be made by that by those in the business of "producing prospects" be they travel team coaches or organizers or coaches or "instructors." Who cares what happens to the kid's arm once he gets past the point of being another # on the "I got x many or % kids drafted or scholarships".

    Leave a comment:


  • dominik
    replied
    I think that is correct. there were always really hard throwing guys, but it is the soft tosser getting weeded out which makes the average creeping up. there were always guys throwing 95 probably but the percentage of guys throwing that hard got much bigger.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mongoose
    replied
    No time to read the whole thread, so I don't know if the following point was raised.

    With no radar guns in the "old days" scouts probably evaluated talent by effectiveness. Nowadays good pitchers with lesser velocity tend to be overlooked and not given the same opportunity. I saw Collin McHugh pitching in a low A game years ago. Never heard of him, no buzz, an also ran. He was great.

    His first few Major League starts were rough. If he'd thrown in the high 90s he probably would have been given more chances at that time. As it stood it took him a couple more years to prove himself.

    Years before that I was always impressed by Terry Leach. Check out his career stats sometime. He never did get a fair chance to shine. Back in 1982, I think, he ended the season with a 10 inning, 1 hit shutout. We didn't see him in the Majors again until 1984. Performing at a high level didn't make much difference; he wasn't viewed as a credible talent because he didn't throw hard.

    Probably more guys like that stuck back when. Nowadays scouts have a quantifiable standard that helps them cover themselves if they pick a dud. This would tend to filter more hard throwers into the Majors now. Regardless, the hardest throwers going back to baseball's earliest days could probably throw as hard as anyone today. Distance throwing contests were usually won by throws exceeding 400 feet. That probably translates to around 100 mph driving off a mound.

    Leave a comment:

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