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DiMaggio or Musial?

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  • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
    Have a hard time believing this. Do you think Stan could have patrolled spacious YS centerfield effectively?
    He played 331 games in center, mostly in his younger years, and his range factor was average without any real park or pitching staff anomalies. All the metrics put him flat average in CF and again mostly in his younger years. He might have gotten robbed of some chances by his team-mates, but Dimaggio certainly did too. He also did not hit many triples later in his career. BIG drop off.

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    • Originally posted by BigRon View Post
      As a schoolboy, Musial was a hitting AND pitching star. He was signed by the Cards essentially as a pitcher, but also played a lot of outfield in games between starts. He hurt his shoulder while diving for a ball in the outfield during a game in 1940, and was never able to throw particularly well again. Like Richie Ashburn, who also suffered an arm injury, he compensated pretty well by good positioning, quick releases, and accurate throws.
      Obviously he didn't have turf to help mask his lack of throwing power. But a great throwing third baseman can aide in that cause. Who was their third sacker and how was his arm?
      "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

      ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

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      • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
        Have a hard time believing this. Do you think Stan could have patrolled spacious YS centerfield effectively?
        I think Musial may have as fast or slightly faster after 30, but imo DiMaggio was faster than Musial in his 20's. As a rookie he was the second fastest Yankee to 1st base, behind the speedy and totally despicable Ben Chapman.
        Last edited by layson27; 05-19-2017, 10:17 AM.

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        • Originally posted by layson27 View Post
          I think Musial may have as fast or slightly faster after 30, but imo DiMaggio was faster than Musial in his 20's. As a rookie he was the second fastest Yankee to 1st base, behind the speedy and totally despicable Ben Chapman.
          Joe had a long two handed follow through. Were they timed from a stand still or on contact?
          "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

          ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

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          • Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
            As a former pitcher, Musial could throw very well. He had a big minor league season on the mound in 1940. 18-5 with a 2.62 ERA.
            He quit pitching because he hurt his throwing shoulder. I don't recall anywhere reading about him having a good arm.


            I do not agree that DiMaggio was a better runner than Musial. Musial was definitely faster, we'll known for his footspeed. Musical was famous for hustling right out of the batter's box. Musical hit a ton of doubles and triples which speaks to his hustle.
            I'm not buying this. DiMaggio was one of the greatest natural athletes and ball players ever. Suddenly now Musial was great runner and thrower. PLEASE?

            In fact, I would say it's an insult to Stan to imply that Joe had the better career
            I hope that you weren't alive in 1969, when DiMaggio was named baseball's greatest living player during the centennial celebration. If so, you must have been hugely insulted

            Have a hard time believing this. Do you think Stan could have patrolled spacious YS centerfield effectively?
            Right on

            Look, I don't have a problem with people ranking Musial over DiMaggio if they use the longevity argument. I don't agree, but I can see it. But, when posters use the character issue or try to make Musial remotely close as an all around player, I can't buy it. Dimaggio is in a ratified air of great all around players along with Mays, Wagner, Trout, and a few other others.
            Last edited by JR Hart; 05-19-2017, 10:45 AM.
            This week's Giant

            #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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            • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
              Joe had a long two handed follow through. Were they timed from a stand still or on contact?
              It seems from this article that it was after contact, but there's no way to know for sure- https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...3568%2C1415593

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              • Originally posted by brett View Post
                No, its simply a qualified fact. IF-THEN. If he had an average home field advantage then his stats would have been y based on his road numbers x. Again, I agree that his lesser home stats could have been in part due to him feeling more pressure at home, but the thing is that we actually have a) home and road stats that are incongruous (his home numbers RELATIVE to his road numbers are among the lowest in history) and b) we have a park that we would expect to cause that kind of effect. If the park did not reduce right handed home runs across the board by a huge margin then I would consider Joe quite differently as a hitter. Its also not on par with Gehrig overall because Gehrig's on base percentage was still 7% higher than the projection for Joe and Gehrig's OPS+ is still about 15 points higher.

                Gehrig had a 119% relative batting average. Dimaggio was 122% on the road (vesus league average home and away) and 124% versus all other hitters on the road.

                Also, it is not really regression to the mean. That would mean that you would expect Dimaggio's home rates to eventually become better than his home rates given enough time. That stats do not suggest that because his home to road discrepancy is among the greatest in history in favor of his road numbers.
                Of course it's regression to the mean. It's one thing to put up those rates for 70 games out of the season, and for 880 games for a career; it is another thing entirely to put up those rates for 140 games a year and 1760 games for your career. That MAY have been Joe's true talent level, but it is very, very unlikely.

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                • Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
                  He quit pitching because he hurt his throwing shoulder. I don't recall anywhere reading about him having a good arm.




                  I'm not buying this. DiMaggio was one of the greatest natural athletes and ball players ever. Suddenly now Musial was great runner and thrower. PLEASE?



                  I hope that you weren't alive in 1969, when DiMaggio was named baseball's greatest living player during the centennial celebration. If so, you must have been hugely insulted



                  Right on

                  Look, I don't have a problem with people ranking Musial over DiMaggio if they use the longevity argument. I don't agree, but I can see it. But, when posters use the character issue or try to make Musial remotely close as an all around player, I can't buy it. Dimaggio is in a ratified air of great all around players along with Mays, Wagner, Trout, and a few other others.
                  One gets the feeling that Dimaggio was kind of like Griffey, in that his actual all around play probably was not quite as good as the stories and hyperbole would lead you to believe. The numbers would agree with that theory. I mean, they guy had 30 steals for his CAREER. Even Hank Greenberg had 58.

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                  • Originally posted by willshad View Post
                    One gets the feeling that Dimaggio was kind of like Griffey, in that his actual all around play probably was not quite as good as the stories and hyperbole would lead you to believe. The numbers would agree with that theory. I mean, they guy had 30 steals for his CAREER. Even Hank Greenberg had 58.
                    But he was recognized at least anecdotally as a great baserunner going first to third, second to home, etc. Who in that era focused on stealing bases?

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                    • Originally posted by PRW View Post
                      But he was recognized at least anecdotally as a great baserunner going first to third, second to home, etc. Who in that era focused on stealing bases?
                      George Case.
                      .


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                      • IMO ... not cracking a number here, and I'll say again that I take Musial in this but it's not by a huge margin and that shouldn't be taken as any disrespect to DiMaggio, both of them IMO belong in the discussion for the absolute elite in MLB history ... Musial suffers in comparison to DiMaggio for the main reason Aaron suffers in comparison to Mays in a lot of people's eyes.

                        DiMaggio was so vicious a hitter ... that's the way I describe his swing, just absolutely vicious ... so graceful a player in the field, he absolutely had this incredible flair about him.

                        Mays ... enough said.

                        Musial and Aaron didn't have that flair, they were "working man" players for lack of a better description, they simply did everything that a major league player needs to do, period.

                        Bill James in one of his writings said of Aaron something along the lines of "he just hit the ball as hard as he needed to hit it, threw the ball as hard as he needed to throw it and where he needed to throw it, ran to the place he needed to be to catch the ball, stole every base he needed to steal and took every extra base he needed to take."

                        I didn't grow up watching Musial, he retired when I was 5 and I hadn't started following baseball then, but he strikes me as the same kind of player. And I think to this day, the only player possibly more unappreciated than Aaron ... I said unappreciated, not underrated ... is Musial.

                        Because people gravitate to flair, even if the level of excellence is the same or dang close.

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                        • Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
                          George Case.
                          I forgot about him. Touché. But the stolen base was not the kind of offensive weapon at that point that it was pre-rabbit ball and in the 1960s.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by PRW View Post
                            IMO ... not cracking a number here, and I'll say again that I take Musial in this but it's not by a huge margin and that shouldn't be taken as any disrespect to DiMaggio, both of them IMO belong in the discussion for the absolute elite in MLB history

                            .
                            Gosh- just joining in the army of ignorance, aren't you?
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                            • Originally posted by willshad View Post
                              One gets the feeling that Dimaggio was kind of like Griffey, in that his actual all around play probably was not quite as good as the stories and hyperbole would lead you to believe. The numbers would agree with that theory. I mean, they guy had 30 steals for his CAREER. Even Hank Greenberg had 58.
                              Seriously???


                              And most of the assessments made about DiMaggio were made by his peers and team managers
                              This week's Giant

                              #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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                              • Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
                                Gosh- just joining in the army of ignorance, aren't you?
                                Not if your elite is more than five players. Probably your first four polls in the other thread are going to fit in my definition of the absolute elite in MLB history, given how many people have played the game.

                                DiMaggio's going to probably be toward the end of my selection in that group ... after Musial, who I think I had ninth.

                                And it is close in my mind because as I've told you folks repeatedly, it's not completely about the numbers or even about career length to me. I'm not anti-metrics, I don't just say case closed when I see them. Joe has some intangibles, even though he was never at any point in his life The Greatest Living Player.

                                On edit: It's close to me in THIS particular mano y mano comparison, but my pick in the all-time rankings might not be as close. Yes I know that sounds like I'm off my rocker or hypocritical, but contemplating all-time pitchers or position players, I've got a lot of people very close 6-20 and there might be more OF between Musial and DiMaggio.
                                Last edited by PRW; 05-19-2017, 01:12 PM.

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