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**The Dude** · 04-09-2006, 08:08 PM

Bringing up how we seperate our hall of famers is an interesting point, because most of the time we usually throw out the words marginal, or greatest ever. A thorough breakdown of where you rank everyone in your HOF is a great idea to bring up because I'm sure everyone has different methods and systems. However, I think this also brings up something that differes from a lot of our members, which is wether they're more traditional about who they include in their hall and more selective, or if like myself, they choose to honor more than the average amount of members. In my hall, I'm very generous and set a quota for 20 players at each position, and I have a few more at some positions as well.

The only thing I dislike about your method Mark, is that with your system, some of the players that could be argued at the best of their position fall to the second tier, like Jimmie Foxx. But then taking a second look at your system, they way you have yours, it seems that it still works out as Foxx stands with good company in Thomas, one of the players I include in my All-Timers tier. One other thing I kind of dislike, is your system of having the best of their generation. As you can see in mine, I have Mize, Greenberg, Gehrig, and Foxx all in the top 5. They all played at the same time, yet I believe they were all some of the best. I don't like the idea of penalizing Mize and Greenberg and moving them down a step just because while they may be much better than other 1st Basemen of another era, they get stuck in the same bracket because they were a few steps behind of the best of their generation.

I rank them somewhat like you do, but my personal HoF has five categories: All-Timers, The Best, Middle of the Road, Just In, and Special Circumstances, which is for Japanese Leaguers and 19th Century players.

Alphabetically
All-Timers
Hank Aaron
Ty Cobb
Willie Mays
Babe Ruth
Honus Wagner

The Best
Catchers: Bench, Berra, Campanella, Pudge, Piazza,
1st Base: Foxx, Gehrig, Greenberg, Mize, Thomas
2nd Base: Collins, Carew, Gehringer, Hornsby, Lajoie, Morgan, Robinson
3rd Base: Boggs, Brett, Mathews, Schmidt
Shorstop: Banks, Rodriguez, Vaughan, Wagner, Yount
Centerfield: Cobb, DiMaggio, Mays, Mantle, Speaker
Rightfield: Aaron, Gwynn, Ott, Robinson, Ruth
Leftfield: Bonds, Jackson, Musial Williams, Yastrzemski
Designated Hitter: Molitor, Martinez

I wont post the other two categories unless you want all that information,

**Sultan_1895-1948** · 04-09-2006, 08:09 PM

Mark, Bonds is no "titan" and he's got no business being mentioned in the same breath as Cobb imo. Polar opposites in every way. Cobb's eyelashes had more heart than Bonds' whole body.

Interesting post overall, it's obvious you put some thought into it. Hard to get past that though. I think Bonds belongs where Rickey is, and with with a natural decline, very likely behind Rickey depending on how much value you give to SB and leadoff adjustments.

ps. I do like this idea much better Mark; it'll make ranking Negro Leaguers much more comfortable. Ballpark is all we can say, and even that's a best case scenario.

**SABR Matt** · 04-09-2006, 08:12 PM

I like this idea of brackets in the ratings so that perhaps it becomes less important to pick on individual numerical ratings (my lists sometimes get picked at as do everyone's here because people have a very specific idea of where certain players should rank but if you look at the wins created or the Greatness Index, the differences are so small as to make it pointless to squaabble about).

Bracket 1 (there can be only one...)

Babe Ruth

Bracket 2 (other players who some believe compete with Ruth, who I do not, but who I believe form the elite otherwise)

Ted Williams
Barry Bonds
Ty Cobb
Willie Mays
Mickey Mantle
Honus Wagner
Oscar Charleston

Bracket 3 (Legends who dominated their leagues for long stretches at their positions and have no other caveats or concerns regarding their status)

C - Johnny Bench, Carlton Fisk, Josh Gibson
1B- Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx
2B- Rogers Hornsby, Joe Morgan, Eddie Collins, Nap Lajoie
3B- Eddie Mathews, Mike Schmidt
SS- Pop Lloyd
LF- Rickie Henderson, Stan Musial
CF- Tris Speaker
RF- Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson

Bracket 4 (The HOF standards against whom contemporary players are judged)

C - Yogi Berra, Gary Carter, Pudge Rodriguez, Mickey Cochrane, Mike Piazza, Gabby Hartnett, Bill Dickey, Ted Simmons
1B- Willie McCovey, Johnny Mize, Roger Connor, Jeff Bagwell, Mark McGwire, Eddie Murray, Rafael Palmeiro, Harmon Killebrew, Dick Allen
2B- Jackie Robinson, Charlie Gehringer, Bid McPhee, Frankie Frisch, Bobby Grich, Lou Whitaker, Rod Carew
3B- George Brett, Wade Boggs, Ron Santo, Brooks Robinson, Darrell Evans, Stan Hack, Frank Baker
SS- Arky Vaughn, Robin Yount, Ozzie Smith, Cal Ripken Jr, Alex Rodriguez, Luke Applig, Barry, George Davis, Larkin, Joe Cronin, Bill Dahlen
LF- Willie Stargell, Pete Rose, Ed Delahanty, Carl Yastrzemski, Billy Williams, Tim Raines, Al Simmons, Goose Goslin
CF- Joe DiMaggio, Max Carey, Richie Ashburn, Duke Snider, Ken Griffey Jr, Billy Hamilton
RF- Mel Ott, Al Kaline, Reggie Jackson, Roberto Clemente, Ichiro, Tony Gwynn, Paul Waner
DH- Edgar Martinez, Paul Molitor

Bracket 5 (on the bubble for the HOF)
this list would be pretty huge...not going to list 'em all here...LOL

**leecemark** · 04-09-2006, 08:24 PM

--Sultan, in my numerical rankings I have Bonds outside the top 10 (although only barely at 11) due to concerns about steroids and how they altered his career path. However, he does have an arguement for best ever if you a) don't care about steroids or (less likely) don't believe he used them to transform his normal decline years to better than peak ones and b) think the game is better now than its ever been. That does not represent my position.
--For that matter only 2 (Mays and Ruth) of my 5 Titans are in my top 5 when listed out 1 thru...Aaron I have third, but he is clearly behind Mays. Williams I have fourth, but he is clearly behind Ruth. To be a Titan you have to have an argument for the top spot that isn't clearly trumped by someone else. I can respect Matt having only one player in that group (and I expect you do too

).

**Sultan_1895-1948** · 04-09-2006, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by leecemark

--Sultan, in my numerical rankings I have Bonds outside the top 10 (although only barely at 11) due to concerns about steroids and how they altered his career path. However, he does have an arguement for best ever if you a) don't care about steroids or (less likely) don't believe he used them to transform his normal decline years to better than peak ones and b) think the game is better now than its ever been. That does not represent my position.
--For that matter only 2 (Mays and Ruth) of my 5 Titans are in my top 5 when listed out 1 thru...Aaron I have third, but he is clearly behind Mays. Williams I have fourth, but he is clearly behind Ruth. To be a Titan you have to have an argument for the top spot that isn't clearly trumped by someone else. I can respect Matt having only one player in that group (and I expect you do too

).

I certainly have only one captain. Ruth is driving. Cobb is in the passenger seat, reaching over to try and steer the wheel. Wagner, Mays, and Speaker are in the back seat just chillin'. Where they're headin' is anybody's guess.

I honestly can't see a case for Bonds being in that car, steroids or no steroids. You bring up this era as if it's tough. I'll never get that. Just because it might be harder to separate from that pack, doesn't mean it's "harder" to play the game today. In fact, it's never been easier, which is why it's tougher to separate.

Yesterday in KC, Mike Sweeney was clearing looking to pull the ball. He got a perfectly located curveball on the outside corner. He was completely out front and off balance, and with his butt sticking out, he reached and pulled a homer. Today I caught a little of the Royals game, and somebody, I wanna say Reggie Sanders, got the ball a bit down on the barrel, and just popped it up toward right center and the ball carried out. Just when I was thinking how absurd it was, the announcers echoed my thoughts and mentioned how they must be using a "hot" baseball this year, with some of the dingers that have been hit.

It's not just this year, although it seems worse. It's this whole friekin' era and it makes me sick. Today's players have everything going for them, and we wanna sit here and say it's tough? How so? Ridiculous. Adjustments should be made downward with these players, not upwards. The number of guys who will end up hitting 500 homers, and the number of times 50 and 60 has been hit should tell us something.

**leecemark** · 04-09-2006, 08:54 PM

--You totally misunderstood my comment regarding Bonds. I said that you would have to believe that baseball today was better than ever to make the argument for Bonds as best ever and that I don't believe that. Its a harder gamer to dominate than the one Cobb and Ruth played, but not as hard as the one Mays and Aaron played.

**Taco De Muerte** · 04-09-2006, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948

I honestly can't see a case for Bonds being in that car, steroids or no steroids. You bring up this era as if it's tough. I'll never get that. Just because it might be harder to separate from that pack, doesn't mean it's "harder" to play the game today. In fact, it's never been easier, which is why it's tougher to separate.

There's simply no statistic that would suggest that bonds is not a top five player ever. Infact, most would suggest he's second alltime after Ruth. Now if you want to " adjust " for his recent seasons because of steroids, that's another story.

But taking bonds entire career at facevalue, there's simply no statistic that would suggest he's not a top five player alltime. Infact there's none that would suggest that he's not a top three player alltime.

**DoubleX** · 04-09-2006, 09:15 PM

This is a good idea. Since my rankings are always in flux, I've recently taken to putting players within a range, usually within 3 places at the very top, then 5 places a little further down (say starting around 20), and then something bigger as I get even further down (probably around starting around 50). It's pretty much impossible for me to pinpoint a player's ranking for any extended period of time.

That said, my top 4 position players are usually set as:

1) Ruth
2) Mays
3) Cobb
4) Williams

Though I occasionally swap Ruth and Mays around.

My top 7 pitchers are generally set as well in terms of which players, though the order can vary:

1a) Clemens
1b) Johnson
3) Grove
4) Maddux
5) Alexander
6) Young
7) Seaver

**DoubleX** · 04-09-2006, 09:23 PM

Is there somehow we could start some kind of election project based on group rankings (would people even be for it)? I'm guessing it would be akin to a tiered Hall of Fame. Or would this be too similar to a project that was going on not too long ago in the Hall of Fame forum, when we were doing like a pyramid voting project?

**gehrigfan** · 04-09-2006, 10:02 PM

Rogers Hornsby Better Than Cobb

I know a lot of you love Ty Cobb and Honus Wagner but neither is in my Top 10 All Time list for the same reason...SLG. I know Cobb slugged pretty good for his time and that it's tough to compare different eras, but Rogers Hornsby IMO was a better player than both of these guys. Cobb has one Triple Crown, Wagner none....Hornsby and Ted Williams are the only players to have TWO...which is a clear indication of their superior talents compared to their peers. They led their peers in AVG. and POWER numbers. Cobb was a great hitter with a lifetime avg. of .366, but Hornsby is right there with a lifetime .358 avg. They have similar .OBP's but again Hornsby has more pop to go with his great hitting. I know it's a tough call and I may be splitting hairs but I gotta go with Hornsby.

**gehrigfan** · 04-09-2006, 10:28 PM

Where To Rank Bonds on the All-Time List?

A lot of guys on ESPN were talking about Bonds being the third best player ever in the history of the game. I take issue with this ranking. Whether he did steroids or not, and whether steroids made his numbers jump in his later years is not the reason I don't have him ranked that high on my All-Time list. He is a prolific home run hitter...third all-time behind only McGwire and Ruth...but his career batting avg. at the beginning of this season was just up to .300. Now, no one ever argues that McGwire should be considered one of the best players of All-time because the man batted .263 for his career, and this is why I don't think Bonds should be ranked that high. Even if you compare his SLG. with the greats of the game...he falls behind Ruth, Williams, GEHRIG and Albert Pujols right now. So the only argument for him to be ranked high is his incredible home runs, and his well-earned record 7 MVP's. But if you look at his CAREER of work and not just his remarkable transformation in his later years, and compare his career numbers to the greats of the game.....there is no way he is third all-time, with a career batting avg. of just .300.

**DoubleX** · 04-09-2006, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by gehrigfan

I know a lot of you love Ty Cobb and Honus Wagner but neither is in my Top 10 All Time list for the same reason...SLG. I know Cobb slugged pretty good for his time and that it's tough to compare different eras, but Rogers Hornsby IMO was a better player than both of these guys. Cobb has one Triple Crown, Wagner none....Hornsby and Ted Williams are the only players to have TWO...which is a clear indication of their superior talents compared to their peers. They led their peers in AVG. and POWER numbers. Cobb was a great hitter with a lifetime avg. of .366, but Hornsby is right there with a lifetime .358 avg. They have similar .OBP's but again Hornsby has more pop to go with his great hitting. I know it's a tough call and I may be splitting hairs but I gotta go with Hornsby.

Something tells me that you've just invited in a storm. Some of us may not hold Cobb in quite as high esteem as others, but I think there will be a strong, and quite possibly a very vocal consensus, reacting to your evaluation of Cobb (which is an underestimate, to say the least). So I just thought I'd give you a head's up...Be ready buddy.

**Sultan_1895-1948** · 04-10-2006, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by gehrigfan

I know a lot of you love Ty Cobb and Honus Wagner but neither is in my Top 10 All Time list for the same reason...SLG. I know Cobb slugged pretty good for his time and that it's tough to compare different eras, but Rogers Hornsby IMO was a better player than both of these guys. Cobb has one Triple Crown, Wagner none....Hornsby and Ted Williams are the only players to have TWO...which is a clear indication of their superior talents compared to their peers. They led their peers in AVG. and POWER numbers. Cobb was a great hitter with a lifetime avg. of .366, but Hornsby is right there with a lifetime .358 avg. They have similar .OBP's but again Hornsby has more pop to go with his great hitting. I know it's a tough call and I may be splitting hairs but I gotta go with Hornsby.

Actually Mr. Cobb won three triple crowns in his first three full seasons. You must remember that HR were not a part of the triple crown back then. It was total hits, batting average, and RBI. Cobb led in these three categories in '07-'09. A remarkable feat. HR didn't become a part of the triple crown until Baker later popularized it.

Cobb is rarified air around here, so props to you for coming out of the gate swinging, but if you truly understand Cobb the person and player, you'll understand how and why he would and could succeed in any era, anytime, regardless of style of play. Next to Ruth, to me, this guy was on another planet. The best at their respective approaches. Words don't begin to explain his genius. so forgive me from attempting to explain it to you.

**baseballPAP** · 04-10-2006, 04:38 AM

Originally posted by gehrigfan

A lot of guys on ESPN were talking about Bonds being the third best player ever in the history of the game. I take issue with this ranking. Whether he did steroids or not, and whether steroids made his numbers jump in his later years is not the reason I don't have him ranked that high on my All-Time list. He is a prolific home run hitter...third all-time behind only McGwire and Ruth...but his career batting avg. at the beginning of this season was just up to .300. Now, no one ever argues that McGwire should be considered one of the best players of All-time because the man batted .263 for his career, and this is why I don't think Bonds should be ranked that high. Even if you compare his SLG. with the greats of the game...he falls behind Ruth, Williams, GEHRIG and Albert Pujols right now. So the only argument for him to be ranked high is his incredible home runs, and his well-earned record 7 MVP's. But if you look at his CAREER of work and not just his remarkable transformation in his later years, and compare his career numbers to the greats of the game.....there is no way he is third all-time, with a career batting avg. of just .300.

First, welcome to the board. Second, please try to realize that batting average is a terrible way to start your measure of a player. Take a look at OPS and think it through, and see if that doesn't seem like a better stat to start with my friend.

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