13th Greatest Pitcher

[Bill Burgess]

Congratulations to the scintillating Pedro Martinez for winning our 12th Greatest Pitcher Poll! He scored 59 points from our 20 voters, including 8 first place votes. The hard-throwing fire-baller from the 40's, Bob Feller amassed 57 points for second place, picking up 5 first place votes for himself along the way.

Bob Gibson brought up 3rd place, thereby serving notice that he will be a force in the coming rounds.

The 13th round for Greatest Pitcher series is now open. Round 13 will end when we receive 20 ballots, however long that takes us.

1. Walter Johnson
2. Greg Maddux
3. Cy Young
4. Lefty Grove
5. Pete Alexander
6. Christy Mathewson
7. Tom Seaver
8. Roger Clemens
9. Randy Johnson
10. Warren Spahn
11. Satchel Paige
12. Pedro Martinez
13.

As per our usual, please consider everything. Counting totals, rate stats, relative stats, peak, longevity, special skills, awards/opinions, intangibles, team support/lack of support, special circumstances, time missed for war/injuries, etc.

We are now ONLY voting for the 13th Greatest. Please submit your ballot with your next Top 5 Pitchers. As the winner of Round 12, Pedro Martinez is now eliminated from further consideration. Negro Leaguers are eligible.

[COLOR="Red"]Here is how Round 1 broke down.---31 voters

-----Johnson------Maddux--Matty-Alexander-Young---Grove---Clemens--Nichols-Spahn-Feller-Koufax-Seaver-Martinez-Rivera-N.Ryan
1.----110 pts(22)---25(5)------0-----0-------5(1)-----10(2)-----0--------0-----0------5(1)-----0----0-------0-------0------0
2. ---24(6)---------24(6)---16(4)---4(1)----12(3)-----28(7)----8(2)-------0-----0-------0----4(1)----0-------0-------0------0 
3.-----6(2)---------15(5)----3(1)--18(6)-----9(3)-----18(6)-----0-------3(1)---6(2)-----0------0-----0-------0-------0-----6(2)
4. -----2(1)--------10(5)----2(1)--10(5)----16(8)------8(4)----10(5)------0-----0-------0-----2(1)---0-------0-------0------0
5.------0------------4(4)----1(1)---6(6)-----4(4)------4(4)------0--------0----1(1)----1(1)---2(2)--1(1)----1(1)-----2(2)----0
Totals-142-----------78-------22----38-------46-------68-------18-------3-----7-------6-------8----1-------1-------2------6

1. Walter Johnson - 142 (22)
2. Greg Maddux - 78 (5)
3. Lefty Grove - 68 (2)
4. Cy Young - 46 (1)
4. Pete Alexander - 38
6. Christy Mathewson - 22
7. Roger Clemens - 18
8. Sandy Koufax - 8
9. Warren Spahn - 7
9. Bob Feller - 6 (1)
11. Nolan Ryan - 6
11. Kid Nichols - 3
12. Mariano Rivera - 2
13. Tom Seaver - 1
13. Pedro Martinez - 1[/COLOR]
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[COLOR="RoyalBlue"][B]Here is how Round 2 broke down.---24 voters[/B]

1. Greg Maddux - 78(11)
2. Lefty Grove - 71(7)
3. Cy Young - 58(2)
4. Pete Alexander - 46(1)
5. Christy Mathewson - 31(2)
6. Roger Clemens - 20(1)
7. Warren Spahn - 9
8. Nolan Ryan - 7
9. Bob Feller - 5
9. Tom Seaver - 5
9. Randy Johnson - 5 
12. Pedro Martinez - 4
13. Bob Gibson - 3
13. Mariano Rivera - 3
15. Satchel Paige - 2
16. Smokey Joe Williams - 1
16. Kid Nichols - 1
16. Curt Schilling - 1
------------------------------
Fine Breakdown: Round 2:
------------------------------1st-----2nd-----3rd-----4th-----5th
1. Greg Maddux--------------55(11)--20(5)----3(1)----0--------0
2. Lefty Grove --------------35(7)---12(3)----18(6)---4(2)-----2(2)
3. Cy Young-----------------10(2)---16(4)----18(6)--12(6)----2(2)
4. Pete Alexander--------------5(1)--20(5)----12(4)---4(2)----5(5)
5. Christy Mathewson----------10(2)-8(2)------6(2)---4(2)----3(3)
6. Roger Clemens---------------5(1)--8(2)-----3(1)----2(1)---2(2)
7. Warren Spahn-----------------0---4(1)-----3(1)-----0-----2(1) 
8. Nolan Ryan--------------------0---4(1)------0------2(1)---1(1)
9. Bob Feller---------------------0-----0-------0------4(2)---1(1)
9. Tom Seaver-------------------0-----0-------3(1)--2(1)-----0 
9. Randy Johnson----------------0-----0-------3(1)--2(1)-----0  
12. Pedro Martinez---------------0----4(1)------0-----0-------0
13. Bob Gibson-------------------0-----0-------0-----2(1)----1(1)
13. Mariano Rivera---------------0------0------0-----2(1)-----1(1)
15. Satchel Paige----------------0------0------0-----2(1)------0 
16. Smokey Joe Williams----------0------0------0------0-------1(1)
16. Kid Nichols-------------------0------0------0------0-------1(1) 
16. Curt Schilling-----------------0------0------0------0-------1(1)[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Red"]Round 3:---19 voters

1. Cy Young - 66(5)
2. Lefty Grove - 57(5)
3. Pete Alexander - 54(3)
4. Christy Mathewson - 40
5. Tom Seaver - 28(1)
6. Roger Clemens - 18(2)
7. Randy Johnson - 13(1)
8. Satchel Paige - 8
9. Bob Feller - 5
9. Mariano Rivera - 5
11. Warren Spahn - 4
11. Nolan Ryan - 4
13. Sandy Koufax - 3
14.  Steve Carlton- 2
14. Bob Gibson - 2
16. Curt Schilling - 1
16. Pedro Martinez - 1
16. Rube Foster - 1

Here's the breakdown.

-----------------------1st------2nd-----3rd------4th------5th
1. Cy Young----------25(5)-----20(5)----15(5)----6(3)------0
2. Lefty Grove--------25(5)-----24(6)-----3(1)----4(2)------1(1)
3. Pete Alexander-----15(3)-----16(4)----18(6)----4(2)------1(1)
4. Christy Mathewson-10(2)-----16(4)-----3(1)----8(4)------3(3)
5. Tom Seaver--------5(1)------4(1)------9(3)----6(3)------4(4)
6. Roger Clemens-----10(2)-----4(1)-------0------2(1)------2(2)
7. Randy Johnson------5(1)------0--------3(1)-----0--------5(5)
8. Satchel Paige--------0--------0--------6(2)-----2(1)------0
9. Bob Feller------------0--------0-------3(1)-----2(1)-------0
10. Warren Spahn-------0-------0---------0-------2(1)------2(2)
10. Nolan Ryan----------0------4(1)-------0-------0---------0
13. Sandy Koufax-------0-------0---------3(1)-----0---------0
14. Bob Gibson----------0-------0---------0-------2(1)------0
14. Steve Carlton-------0--------0---------0------2(1)------0
16. Pedro Martinez------0--------0---------0-------0--------1(1)
16. Curt Schilling--------0--------0---------0-------0--------1(1)
16. Rube Foster---------0--------0---------0-------0--------1(1)[/COLOR]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Round 4.---21 voters

1. Lefty Grove - 73(9)
2. Pete Alexander - 61(4)
3. Christy Mathewson - 48(2)
4. Tom Seaver - 31(2)
5. Roger Clemens - 28(3)
6. Randy Johnson - 17
7. Satchel Paige - 15
8. Pedro Martinez - 13
9. Joe Williams - 6
10. Sandy Koufax - 5
11. Warren Spahn - 4
11. Bob Feller - 4
13. Steve Carlton - 2
14. Bob Caruthers - 1
14. Kid Nichols - 1
14. Rube Foster

Here's the fine breakdown.

--------------------------1st----2nd-----3rd----4th----5th
1. Lefty Grove-----------45(9)---16(4)---6(2)---6(3)----0
2. Pete Alexander--------20(4)---24(6)---9(3)---6(3)---2(2)
3. Christy Mathewson----10(2)----8(2)--24(8)---4(2)---2(2)
4. Tom Seaver-----------10(2)---12(3)---3(1)---4(2)---2(2)
5. Roger Clemens---------15(3)----0------9(3)---2(1)---2(2)
6. Randy Johnson----------0------4(1)-----0----10(5)---3(3)
7. Satchel Paige-----------0------8(2)----3(1)----0-----4(4)
8. Pedro Martinez---------5(1)----8(2)-----0------0------0
9. Joe Williams-------------0------4(1)-----0-----2(1)----0
10. Sandy Koufax----------0--------0-----3(1)---2(1)----0
11. Warren Spahn----------0--------0------0-----2(1)---2(2)
11. Bob Feller--------------0--------0-----3(1)----0-----1(1)
13. Steve Carlton----------0--------0------0-----2(1)----0
14. Bob Caruthers----------0--------0------0------0----1(1)
14. Kid Nichols-------------0--------0------0------0----1(1)
14. Rube Foster------------0--------0------0------0----1(1)[/COLOR]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
[COLOR="Red"]Round 5.  19 voters.

1. Pete Alexander - 65(7)
2. Tom Seaver - 50(6)
3. Christy Mathewson - 39(2)
4. Randy Johnson - 32
5. Satchel Paige - 31(2)
6. Roger Clemens - 21(1)
7. Warren Spahn - 14
8. Bob Feller - 7
9. Kid Nichols - 6
10. Pedro Martinez - 5(1)
11. Joe Williams - 4
12. Bob Gibson - 3
13. Steve Carlton - 2
14. Bob Caruthers - 1
14. Sandy Koufax - 1
-------------------------------------------- 
The fine breakdown.  
-----------------------1st----2nd----3rd---4th---5th
1. Pete Alexander-----35(7)--24(6)---6(2)---0-----0
2. Tom Seaver--------30(6)---8(2)---6(2)--6(3)---0
3. Christy Mathewson-10(2)---8(2)--12(4)--8(4)--1(1)
4. Randy Johnson-------0------8(2)--15(5)--6(3)--3(3)
5. Satchel Paige------10(2)---8(2)---6(2)--6(3)--1(1)
6. Roger Clemens------5(1)---8(2)---3(1)--4(2)--1(1) 
7. Warren Spahn-------0-----4(1)---3(1)---0----7(7)
8. Bob Feller-----------0-----4(1)----0----2(1)--1(1) 
9. Kid Nichols----------0-------0----3(1)--2(1)--1(1) 
10. Pedro Martinez----5(1)-----0-----0-----0-----0
11. Joe Williams--------0-------0-----0---2(1)--1(1)
12. Bob Gibson---------0-------0----3(1)--0-----0 
13. Steve Carlton------0-------0-----0---2(1)---0
14. Bob Caruthers------0-------0-----0----0----1(1) 
14. Sandy Koufax-------0------0-----0----0----1(1)[/COLOR]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Round 6. ---20 voters.

1. Christy Mathewson - 65
2. Tom Seaver - 59
3. Randy Johnson - 35
4. Roger Clemens - 28
4. Warren Spahn - 28
6. Satchel Paige - 27
6. Pedro Martinez - 27
8. Smokey Joe Williams - 8
9. Bob Feller - 6
9. Kid Nichols - 6
11. Sandy Koufax - 4
12. Bob Gibson - 3
13. Steve Carlton - 2
14. Bob Caruthers - 1
14. Mordecai Brown - 1

The fine breakdown.
-------------------------------1st-----2nd-----3rd-----4th-----5th-----Total
Christy Mathewson-------------7(35)---4(16)---2(6)----2(4)----4(4)-----65
Tom Seaver--------------------7(35)---3(12)---1(3)----3(6)----3(3)-----59
Randy Johnson-------------------0-----5(20)---3(9)----2(4)----2(2)-----35
Roger Clemens-----------------2(10)---1(4)----4(12)-----0-----2(2)-----28
Warren Spahn-------------------0-----1(4)----4(12)---5(10)----2(2)----28
Satchel Paige--------------------0-----3(12)---3(9)----3(6)-----0-------27
Pedro Martinez-----------------3(15)---1(4)----1(3)----2(4)----1(1)-----27
Smokey Joe Williams-------------0------0-------1(3)----2(4)----1(1)-----8
Bob Feller----------------------1(5)----0--------0-------0------1(1)-----6
Kid Nichols----------------------0------1(4)------0-------0-----2(2)-----6
Sandy Koufax-------------------0------1(4)------0-------0-------0------4
Bob Gibson----------------------0-------0------1(3)------0------0-------3
Steve Carlton-------------------0-------0-------0-------1(2)-----0------2
Bob Caruthers-------------------0------0--------0--------0-----1(1)-----1
Mordecai Brown-----------------0-------0-------0---------0----1(1)-----1[/COLOR]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Round 7.---[url=http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=80497]Round 7[/url]

---------------------1st-----2nd----3rd-----4th------5th-----Totals
1. Tom Seaver------30(6)---24(6)--12(4)---2(1)----4(4)-------72
2. Warren Spahn----10(2)---24(6)---9(3)--12(6)------0--------55
3. Roger Clemens----35(7)----8(2)----0-----4(2)----6(6)-------53
4. Satchel Paige-----20(4)---12(4)--12(4)----0-------0--------48
5. Randy Johnson----5(1)----8(2)---15(3)---4(2)----2(2)-------34
6. Pedro Martinez----5(1)----4(1)----3(1)----6(3)-----0--------18
7. Bob Gibson---------0-----4(1)-----3(1)----4(2)---1(1)-------13
8. Sandy Koufax------0-------0------9(3)-----0------1(1)------10
9. Kid Nichols---------5(1)----0-------0------2(1)-----0---------7
10. Bob Feller---------0-------0-------0------2(1)----3(3)-------5
11. Nolan Ryan--------0-------0-------0------2(1)----1(1)-------3
11. Steve Carlton-----0--------0------0--------0-----3(3)-------3
13. Amos Rusie-------0---------0------0------2(1)------0--------2
13. Ed Walsh---------0---------0------0------2(1)------0--------2
13. Joe Rogan--------0---------0------0------2(1)------0--------2
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Round 8.---[url=http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=81821&page=2]Round 8.[/url]

[CODE]Fname		Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Roger		Clemens		9	1	2	5	0	65
Randy		Johnson		1	4	7	1	2	46
Warren		Spahn		2	5	4	1	1	45
Satchel		Paige		3	6	0	2	1	44
Pedro		Martinez	3	1	1	2	2	28
Bob		Feller		0	0	1	3	5	14
Sandy		Koufax		1	2	0	0	1	14
Kid		Nichols		1	0	0	3	3	14
Bob		Gibson		0	1	1	0	2	9
Smokey Joe	Williams	0	0	2	1	0	8
Steve		Carlton		0	0	0	1	1	3
Nolan		Ryan		0	0	1	0	0	3
Mariano		Rivera		0	0	0	1	0	2
Whitey		Ford		0	0	0	0	1	1
Juan		Marichal	0	0	0	0	1	1

[/code]

Round 9.---Round 9

Fname		Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Randy		Johnson		5	5	3	3	1	61
Warren		Spahn		3	8	3	2	0	60
Satchel		Paige		7	3	3	1	0	58
Pedro		Martinez	4	3	2	3	1	45
Kid		Nichols		1	1	4	1	7	30
Bob		Feller		1	0	2	5	2	23
Bob		Gibson		0	0	1	2	4	11
Steve		Carlton		0	0	0	3	1	7
Smokey Joe	Williams	0	0	2	0	0	6
Mariano		Rivera		0	1	0	0	0	4
Sandy		Koufax		0	0	1	0	0	3
Juan		Marichal	0	0	0	0	2	2
Amos		Rusie		0	0	0	1	0	2
Three Finger	Brown		0	0	0	0	1	1
Carl		Hubbell		0	0	0	0	1	1
Nolan		Ryan		0	0	0	0	1	1

Round 10.

Fname		Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Warren		Spahn		9	5	3	1	1	77
Satchel		Paige		8	4	1	0	0	59
Pedro		Martinez	3	3	3	1	1	39
Bob		Feller		1	1	5	3	1	31
Kid		Nichols		0	4	0	6	2	30
Bob		Gibson		0	1	3	4	5	26
Steve		Carlton		0	0	2	3	0	12
Sandy		Koufax		0	2	1	0	1	12
Smokey Joe	Williams	0	1	2	0	0	10
Carl		Hubbell		0	0	1	1	2	7
Amos		Rusie		0	0	1	1	0	5
Juan		Marichal	0	0	0	0	4	4
Nolan		Ryan		0	0	0	1	1	3
Three Finger	Brown		0	0	0	0	2	2
Tim		Keefe		0	0	0	0	1	1

Round 11.

Fname		Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Satchel		Paige		10	4	1	0	0	69
Pedro		Martinez	3	6	1	1	2	46
Bob		Feller		3	2	6	0	3	44
Kid		Nichols		3	1	4	2	4	39
Bob		Gibson		0	2	2	6	3	29
Carl		Hubbell		0	1	2	2	3	17
Steve		Carlton		0	2	2	1	0	16
Smokey Joe	Williams	1	1	1	0	0	12
Sandy		Koufax		0	1	0	1	1	7
Three Finger	Brown		0	0	0	2	2	6
Nolan		Ryan		0	0	1	1	0	5
Juan		Marichal	0	0	0	2	0	4
Tim		Keefe		0	0	0	1	1	3
Eddie		Plank		0	0	0	1	0	2
Gaylord		Perry		0	0	0	0	1	1

Round 12.

Fname		Lname		First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
Pedro		Martinez	8	3	0	3	1	59
Bob		Feller		5	6	0	2	4	57
Bob		Gibson		1	5	4	5	1	48
Kid		Nichols		3	1	4	3	2	39
Steve		Carlton		0	2	2	3	2	22
Carl		Hubbell		0	0	5	1	1	18
Smokey Joe	Williams	1	1	1	2	0	16
Sandy		Koufax		0	1	1	0	2	9
Three Finger	Brown		1	0	0	0	3	8
Tim		Keefe		0	1	0	1	1	7
Juan		Marichal	0	0	2	0	0	6
Bob		Caruthers	1	0	0	0	0	5
Nolan		Ryan		0	0	1	0	0	3
Eddie		Plank		0	0	0	0	2	2
Gaylord		Perry		0	0	0	0	1	1

Pedro Martinez is our winner, just barely over Bob Feller.

[Bill Burgess]

Pitchers Form Chart:

Pre - 1900: Tim Keefe, John "Monte" Ward, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Jim "Pud" Galvin, Mickey Welch, Sadie McMahon, Jim McCormick, Charlie "Old Hoss" Radbourne, Amos Rusie, Jim Whitney, Larry Corcoran, Clark Griffith, Al Spalding, Kid Nichols, Charlie Ferguson, Tony Mullane, Silver King, Bobby Mathews, Tommy Bond, Jim Creighton, Gus Weyhing, Jack Stivetts, Will White, Ted Breitenstein, Adonis Terry, Will White, Charlie Buffington, Bill Hutchison, Guy Hecker, Terry Larkin, George Bradley, Fred Goldsmith, Ed Morris, Dave Foutz, Toad Ramsey, Jim Devlin, Matt Kilroy, Ben Sanders, Elton Chamberlain.

1900-1930: Rube Waddell, Mordecai Brown, Addie Joss, Ed Walsh, Eddie Plank, Joe McGinnity, Chief Bender, Ed Reulbach, Nap Rucker, Wilbur Cooper, Deacon Phillippe, Dazzy Vance, Stan Coveleski, Herb Pennock, Carl Mays, Ed Cicotte, Bill Dinneen, Ted Lyons, Eppa Rixey, Vic Willis, Hippo Vaughn, Dutch Leonard, Urban Shocker, Burleigh Grimes, Doc White, Nick Altrock, Sam Jones, Jack Coombs, Joe Wood, Jack Chesbro, Jim Bagby, Bullet Joe Bush, Waite Hoyt, Red Faber, Bob Shawkey, Ray Caldwell, Ray Collins, George Mogridge, Earl Hamilton, George Uhle, Eddie Rommel, Dolph Luque.

1930-1960: Dizzy Dean, Carl Hubbell, Whitey Ford, Robin Roberts, Wes Ferrell, Bob Lemon, Lefty Gomez, Hal Newhouser, Red Ruffing, Bucky Walters, Early Wynn, Billy Pierce, Bob Feller, Don Newcombe, Tommy Bridges, Lon Warneke, Mel Harder, Bob Turley, Harry Breechen and Bobby Shantz.

1960-1980: Nolan Ryan, Gaylord Perry, Steve Carlton, Sandy Koufax, Juan Marichal, Bob Gibson, Phil Niekro, Jim "Catfish" Hunter, Ferguson Jenkins, Wilbur Wood, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning, Mickey Lolich, Luis Tiant, Sparky Lyle, Tommy John, Jim Kaat, Dave Stieb, Bert Blyleven, Lew Burdette, Curt Simmons, Harvey Haddix, Johnny Antonelli, Vern Law, Bob Purkey, Johnny Podres, Joe Nuxhall, Ron Perranoski, Bob Veale, Dick Ellsworth, Jim Maloney, Chris Short, Bob Friend, Jim Palmer, Milt Pappas, Jerry Koosman, Dock Ellis, Sam McDowell, Jim 'Mudcat' Grant.

1980-Present: Curt Schilling, Jack Morris, Kevin Brown, John Smoltz, Mike Mussina, Tom Glavine.

Negro Leagues:
"Smokey Joe" Williams, (1905-1932)
Wilbur "Bullet Joe" Rogan, (1917-1938)
"Cannonball" Dick Redding, (1911-1938)
Dave Brown, (1918-1925)
Andrew "Rube" Foster, (1902-1926)
Bill 'Willie' Foster, (1923-1938)
Ray Brown (1930-1948)
Hilton Smith (1932-1948
Jesse 'Nip" Winters (1920-1933)
Will 'Cannonball' Jackman (1925-1936)
Jose Mendez (1908-1926)
John Donaldson (1913-1934)
Walter Ball (1903-1923)

[Bill Burgess]

My Slate of Candidates for the next 5 Slots. Numbers following indicate where Bill James ranked them in 2001.

1. Smokey Joe Williams, 13
2. Bob Feller 14
3. Juan Marichal 21
4. Mordecai Brown 15
5. Bob Gibson 9

Next up.

Nolan Ryan 24
Addie Joss 80

Might I persuade any of you guys to consider voting in our other polls?

10th Greatest Hitter

32th Greatest Player

Wagner/Mays?

I would consider it a great favor if you did.

[mwiggins]

1. Bob Gibson
2. Sandy Koufax
3. Bob Feller
4. Kid Nichols
5. Smokey Joe Williams

[ItsOnlyGil]

1. Mordecai Brown
2. Sandy Koufax
3. Bob Feller
4. Tim Keefe
5. Nolan Ryan

[AstrosFan]

Smoky Joe Williams
Kid Nichols
Steve Carlton
Bob Feller
Carl Hubbell

[Bothrops Atrox]

1. Kid Nichols
2. Bob Gibson
3. Bob Feller
4. Carl Hubbell
5. Steve Carlton

[Bothrops Atrox]

Smoky Joe Williams
Kid Nichols
Steve Carlton
Bob Feller
Carl Hubbell

Out of curiosity, why Hubbell over Gibson?

[PVNICK]

Bob Gibson
Steve Carlton
Juan Marichal
Bob Feller
Smokey Joe Williams

[KCGHOST]

Nichols
Hubbell
Gibson
Keefe
Feller

[leecemark]

1) Feller - if you give him credit for peak years missing to WWII he is top 10, prime years about here, no credit he wouldn't be top 20
2) Carlton - career value very similar to Spahn. Better at his best, but much less consistent
3) Nichols - better than Cy Young in the 19th century portion of their careers, but Young had a 2nd HOF career in the 1900s
4) Gibson - nobody gets a bigger boost from post-season play
5) Williams - many Negro league experts consider him better than Paige

[Windy City Fan]

1. Feller
2. Brown
3. Nichols
4. Gibson
5. Hubbell

On deck: Carlton, Koufax, Marichal, Vance

[AstrosFan]

Out of curiosity, why Hubbell over Gibson?

Honestly, I couldn't give you an answer where you would think: Wow. I never thought about that. I'm absolutely convinced now. Hubbell is definitely better than Gibson.

A few things factor in.

In spite of Gibson's magnificent 1968 season, overall, Hubbell was better at his best, and I believe that to be so even with LQ adjustments.

With ERA+ and IP looked at, Gibson appears to have more career value. But while Hubbell had good defensive support, Gibson had better defensive support. That brings them to pretty much even.

Hitting is not factored in. I am going pitching only here. So Gibson gains no edge there.

While Gibson was the superior postseason pitcher, Hubbell was still pretty good.

Both Baseball Prospectus (w/ their LQ adjustment) and PCA see Hubbell as the better pitcher.

That's the best I can do. Gibson's argument for being ahead is too good to make Hubbell the obvious choice, but I see Hubbell as a little bit better.

[Bothrops Atrox]

Honestly, I couldn't give you an answer where you would think: Wow. I never thought about that. I'm absolutely convinced now. Hubbell is definitely better than Gibson.

A few things factor in.

In spite of Gibson's magnificent 1968 season, overall, Hubbell was better at his best, and I believe that to be so even with LQ adjustments.

With ERA+ and IP looked at, Gibson appears to have more career value. But while Hubbell had good defensive support, Gibson had better defensive support. That brings them to pretty much even.

Hitting is not factored in. I am going pitching only here. So Gibson gains no edge there.

While Gibson was the superior postseason pitcher, Hubbell was still pretty good.

Both Baseball Prospectus (w/ their LQ adjustment) and PCA see Hubbell as the better pitcher.

That's the best I can do. Gibson's argument for being ahead is too good to make Hubbell the obvious choice, but I see Hubbell as a little bit better.

If I ignored postseason, and offense, I would have Hubbel ahead too. However, I always consider offense and postseason in every evaluation - unless the thread creator asks specificaly for one or both not to be included. Gibson created about 50 runs of offesne more than the average pitcher of his day, and is arguably a top 5 all-time postseason pitcher. Definitely enough IMO, to push him ahead of Hubbell - especaily when LQ is added in.

[AstrosFan]

If I ignored postseason, and offense, I would have Hubbel ahead too. However, I always consider offense and postseason in every evaluation - unless the thread creator asks specificaly for one or both not to be included. Gibson created about 50 runs of offesne more than the average pitcher of his day, and is arguably a top 5 all-time postseason pitcher. Definitely enough IMO, to push him ahead of Hubbell - especaily when LQ is added in.

Since this is a greatest pitchers series, I judge them entirely on how they performed as pitchers, not as overall players. I would only include offense if the thread creator asked specifically for it to be included, not the other way around.

Gibson was a great postseason pitcher, but Hubbell was pretty good himself. Because of that, there's simply no way Gibson can make up much ground there without putting enormous weight on playoff performance. I factor it in, but it doesn't put Gibson ahead.