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Cy winners and their teammates

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  • Cy winners and their teammates

    I usually just stalk and rarely post, as I'm not the scholar some of the other people on the site are, and I prefer to learn from them rather than clutter things up with my less-well-researched opinions.

    But I was thinking today, and I started wondering about Cy Young award winners. Specifically, I was wondering how many times the Cy winner wasn't the winningest pitcher on his own team's pitching staff. Obviously any time a reliever like Gagne or Eckersley won this was the case, but I was thinking more of something like Clemens' 04, when he won the award even though Oswalt won more games.

    Then I started wondering further -- there are probably dozens of seasons when an argument can be made that the Cy winner wasn't the best pitcher in the league. But are there any in which the argument can legitimately be made that the Cy winner wasn't even the best pitcher (with everything that entails) on his own team?

    Just thought I'd ask. I'm quite curious

  • #2
    You could argue that Schilling was more deserving then Randy in 2001, winning 1 more game, throwing 3 more CG's, and having a better So-BB ratio. But I don't think I'd buy it.
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    • #3
      AS far as I can tell Greg Maddux was the first starting pitcher to win the award and not have the most wins on his staff. He did that in 1993 when he had 20 wins and Glavine had 22. AFter that it was Curt Schilling-Randy Johnson in 2001 and Roy Oswalt-Roger Clemens in 2004.

      Thats it that is all the times in which a starter has won the award while having another starter on his team with more wins. It took nearly 40 years for it to happen.

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      • #4
        Many believe Maddux was at least as good as Smoltz in '96 and Glavine in '98. Of course Kevin Brown had something to say about both of those years too.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Aqua View Post
          I usually just stalk and rarely post, as I'm not the scholar some of the other people on the site are, and I prefer to learn from them rather than clutter things up with my less-well-researched opinions.

          But I was thinking today, and I started wondering about Cy Young award winners. Specifically, I was wondering how many times the Cy winner wasn't the winningest pitcher on his own team's pitching staff. Obviously any time a reliever like Gagne or Eckersley won this was the case, but I was thinking more of something like Clemens' 04, when he won the award even though Oswalt won more games.

          Then I started wondering further -- there are probably dozens of seasons when an argument can be made that the Cy winner wasn't the best pitcher in the league. But are there any in which the argument can legitimately be made that the Cy winner wasn't even the best pitcher (with everything that entails) on his own team?

          Just thought I'd ask. I'm quite curious
          Dave Stewart was clearly a better and more valuable pitcher in 1990 than the Cy Young winner, his teammate Bob Welch. The only thing Welch had going for him was the superior W/L record (Welch was 27-6 while Stewart was "only" 22-11). Stewart was far superior in just about everything relating to the pitcher's actual performance.

          Stewart made 36 starts
          Welch made 35

          Despite making just one more start than Welch, Stewart pitched 29 more innings, meaning he went much deeper into games

          Stewart's ERA: 2.56
          Welch's: 2.95

          Stewart's ERA+: 144
          Welch's: 125

          Stewart's WHIP: 1.16
          Welch's: 1.22

          Stewart allowed just 16 home runs in 267 innings. Welch gave up longballs at double the rate: 26 HR allowed in 238 innings pitched

          And finally the much-loved WAR:
          Stewart: 5.2 (I'm actually super surprised it was that low)
          Welch: 3.0 (Fun fact: Dennis Eckersley, who pitched just 73 innings, had more WAR than Bob Welch had in 238 innings).

          TLDR; Bob Welch was probably the 3rd most valuable pitcher on his own team, but won the Cy Young because his teammates scored more runs for him.
          Last edited by GiambiJuice; 01-02-2015, 07:37 AM.
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          • #6
            Bob Friend was better than Cy Young winning teammate Vern Law in 1960.

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            • #7
              You know, Pete Vuckovich might have been the best starter on the '82 Brewers, but he might not have been most deserving CY Winner on that team.

              Pete Vuckovich
              223.2 IP
              18-6
              3.34 ERA
              114 ERA+
              1.502 WHIP
              1.03 SO/BB
              2.8 pWAR
              0.8 WAA
              4.03 FIP
              2.0 WPA
              1.0 Adj. Pitching Wins
              18th in MVP Voting

              Rollie Fingers
              79.2 IP
              5-6 with 29 Saves
              2.60 ERA
              147 ERA+
              1.042 WHIP
              3.55 SO/BB
              2.3 pWAR
              1.1 WAA
              2.54 FIP
              3.5 WPA
              1.3 Adj. Pitching Wins
              16th in MVP Voting

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              • #8
                Gaylord Perry was better than Cy Young award winning teammate Mike McCormick in 1967.

                Bob Shaw was better than Early Wynn on the 1959 White Sox.
                Last edited by SavoyBG; 01-02-2015, 03:09 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
                  Gaylord Perry was better than Cy Young award winning teammate Mike McCormick in 1967.

                  Bob Shaw was better than Early Wynn on the 1959 White Sox.
                  I was looking at that Shaw - Wynn comparison a little while ago, but I don't know much (if anything) about the 1959 White Sox and those two pitchers' contributions beyond the numbers. It seems Shaw was used in relief quite a bit as well as starting regularly in the rotation. Does anyone have any insight into the Shaw and Wynn comparison?
                  "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

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                  • #10
                    1993: Jack McDowell wasn't the best pitcher on the White Sox. Wilson Alvarez was.
                    2001: Roger Clemens was picked over Mike Mussina.



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                    • #11
                      Well I had a feeling nobody was beating out Rocket when he was something ridiculous like 20-1 near the end of the year. I kept hearing about that record on the radio and ESPN.
                      "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
                        Bob Friend was better than Cy Young winning teammate Vern Law in 1960.
                        I think it's too close to call. I saw quite a bit of both Friend and Law in 1960. I always liked Friend more, but Law had some very nice seasons, 1960 included. Friend's FIP is better- I assume due to his considerably higher K rate, and also gets more WAR credit. But, other than Ks, their stats are remarkably similar. I think Friend pitched as well as Law in 1960, but I don't think there's a strong case for saying he was measurably better. I also believe that Law was very effective in 1960 in stopping Pirates losing streaks- the few that they had. I don't begrudge Law his CYA.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by BigRon View Post
                          I think it's too close to call. I saw quite a bit of both Friend and Law in 1960. I always liked Friend more, but Law had some very nice seasons, 1960 included. Friend's FIP is better- I assume due to his considerably higher K rate, and also gets more WAR credit. But, other than Ks, their stats are remarkably similar. I think Friend pitched as well as Law in 1960, but I don't think there's a strong case for saying he was measurably better. I also believe that Law was very effective in 1960 in stopping Pirates losing streaks- the few that they had. I don't begrudge Law his CYA.
                          The Pirates staff only had 325 unintentional walks all season. Their 4 main starters only had 137 unintentional walks in 123 starts.

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