*Babe Ruth Thread*

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Thank you for posting those Adam!

You haven't seen THIS DOCUMENTARY posted anywhere online have you?

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[Honus Wagner Rules]

Thank you for posting those Adam!

You haven't seen THIS DOCUMENTARY posted anywhere online have you?

[ATTACH]128441[/ATTACH]

I'll look for it. I gather you haven't seen the documentary I posted previously?

And I'm still trying to get a copy of the 1991 Ruth film with Stephen Lang. You and SHOELESSJOE will be the first to know when I get it!

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I'll look for it. I gather you haven't seen the documentary I posted previously?

And I'm still trying to get a copy of the 1991 Ruth film with Stephen Lang. You and SHOELESSJOE will be the first to know when I get it!

OK HWR, wishing you luck in finding that Lang version.

[Badge714]

Available at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Babe-Ruth-Bruc...be+ruth+movies

I'll look for it. I gather you haven't seen the documentary I posted previously?

And I'm still trying to get a copy of the 1991 Ruth film with Stephen Lang. You and SHOELESSJOE will be the first to know when I get it!

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Available at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Babe-Ruth-Bruc...be+ruth+movies

B714 are you saying that Lang Babe movie may be there, at Amazon, have searched there a number of times and could not find it.
Or are you leading us to some other Babe or Baseball movies at Amazon.

[Captain Cold Nose]

B714 are you saying that Lang Babe movie may be there, at Amazon, have searched there a number of times and could not find it.
Or are you leading us to some other Babe or Baseball movies at Amazon.

That's the documentary Sultan recently posted about.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

That's the documentary Sultan recently posted about.

I guess I missed the intent, got it.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I guess I missed the intent, got it.

I also hope to see the Lang film someday.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Two questions....

Anyone seen these? http://www.comicvine.com/babe-ruth-s...cs/4050-32905/

Anyone know who runs www.baberuthcentral.com ??

Don't know who runs that site but a great snip, a few minutes of a Babe film can be seen there. "I'll Knock A Homer For You", Johnny Sylvester story. Has already won an award. I believe the film may be about an hour in length, looking for some info on where it may be available.
Some snips I cut out of the video.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

The name is still magic, after all the years that have passed.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

What a guy, making more money in the off season in 1926 and some other Johnny stuff.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I thought this deserved to be re-posted here. Jim Fahey, RIP, was one of our most educated, smartest, and well-written members. He was open about parts of his personal life and never held back about his opinions. He came here with his own beliefs, like us all, but kept an open mind, more than most. We had many discussions on the phone, and I can say confidently, that his passion for baseball, and for this site in particular, was extreme. Our own Bill Burgess I would say, is his only rival in that department.

DEAR SULTAN, BILL BURGESS, AND SO MANY OTHERS,

When I came here, I was convinced my knowledge of Babe Ruth was like my knowledge of the songs of the Beatles--right up there with anyone's. No, I don't know all about their lives, contract squabbles, movie details, etc., like some people do, but their music? Without getting into the sort of labyrinthine technical jargon a Classical Music prof at Harvard or Oxford would know all about, yeah, I'm there.

I thought it was thus with Babe. Har de har hardly. :grouchy . You have me so blown away, it's like a gunfight with a would-be robber, where he gets my 9 mm loaded with rubber bullets and I get my 12 gauge, loaded with double-aught magnum buck, and we're only 40 feet away. Whose chances would you like in that face off, with me wearing eye protection and him not wearing a vest, and firing to commence simultaneously? I have very strong legs to remain upright, and FIVE loads of the double-aught in there. Since I'm not the gaudily wealthy type of lawyer, I don't think you could find a home-invasion robber to take that gamble, do you?

OK, I'm using that hardcore example to convey how I now feel, after all these months here, about my knowledge of The Man vs. yours. I've read LOADS of stuff him, studied his stats until I'm blue in the face, blown I don't know how many people away with my knowledge of his career, etc. Then I see what you come up with, off the top of your head, and I have no doubt you are correct unless you express self-doubt in your answer, or unless your answer sounds tongue-in-cheek.

It's been a very humbling experience. Moreover, while there's nobody else here probably near your level when it comes to Him, I must admit there are at least 2 or 3--possibly 5 or 10--others who know at least as much, probably more, about Him than I do. It's all been very humbling. But YOU, sir, are unquestionably The Man.

I've spent much time here, especially in the past 4 to 6 weeks, thinking how glad I am that I'm not one of those with a fixed and inflexible agenda. Yes, there ARE certain things nobody will ever convince me of. For instance:

(1) Nobody will convince me that Dead Ball "pitching" should be given any where near as much credit as live ball pitching, where pitchers have to bear down on every pitch, lest a "pacing" venture result in a lobbed-in pitch that winds up as a fan's souvenir;

(2) Nobody will convince me to rate Hornsby ahead of Morgan, although, much to my surprise and distaste, y'all HAVE convinced me to rate Hornsby ahead of Eddie Collins and Jackie Robinson, which I'd have thought impossible;

(3) I'm quite certain nobody will convince me to rate Cobb ahead of Ruth, though I'll admit his immense numbers of runs scored AND runs batted in, minus the paltry 112 HR's, give him by far the most runs created, using the old definition of that term.

But then I think of everything I HAVE been persuaded to reconsider, and all the beliefs I've been astonished to find myself either: (1) abandoning, or (2) adopting, specifically because of what I've learned at this site. I've gone to baseball-reference.com for a long time, and positively pored over its myriad stats, without adopting all of these startling (to me) stats. But listening to you, Bill, Csh, SABR Matt, Rugby Freak, Myankee, and the countless other very sharp, eloquent baseball minds at this special place has turned me around on so many things.

To give but a small fraction of the examples:

(1) TY COBB The biggest: I am now clear that Cobb is one of the three greatest MLB players ever, not counting A-Rod, Manny Ramirez or Pujols until they've done a hell of a lot more. I am much harder on him than others here where his fielding is concerned, but those who've read my posts about Piazza know how modestly I factor in defense, and Cobb was MUCH better defensively than Piazza, and that's while playing far less important positions.

Gone forever are the days when I consider Speaker-v.-Cobb and open question, as are the days I thought Williams, Grove or Mantle had a case for being ranked ahead of Cobb. As y'all know, I NEVER thought Wagner had a case.

I've long rated Cobb higher than any of my real-life baseball friends do. But this site has made me move him to #3, and when I finally finish Kavanagh's book on Walter Johnson, and ponder its significance for his ranking of my all-time pitchers (see below), I'm going to reread Charles Alexander's tremendous Cobb bio, ask Sultan and Bill for their picks of the best OTHER Cobb bio, and read those two books. I could be talked into moving Cobb ahead of Mays, as much as it viscerally upsets me. I DO want to be fair, and my lists aren't based on whom I like, or Grove sure wouldn't be my #1 pitcher.

(2) WALTER JOHNSON I've obviously not been persuaded he is #1 as a pitcher, and frankly that's not going to happen. His grandson, Henry Thomas, wrote one of the most intellectually dishonest and selective bios I've ever read. The book I'm struggling to finish, Jack Kavanagh's year-by-year, game-by-game account, is more completely factual, but it's jejune and at time tedious. However, I'm getting a clear picture of his career from it, albeit much less so regarding his great infield defense than what Grandsonny's book gave about all the defensively spectacular (but offensively putrid) infielders.

Anyway, I've read everything y'all say about him, and while I disregard the over-the-top and the irrational or obviously agenda-driven, the vast majority of what I've read is focused, honest and extremely persuasive. When I came on here, I think I had him around #8, but it frankly was far from clear in my mind whether Walter Johnson belonged in the Top 10. I couldn't see where any "pitcher" who spent all of his great years lobbing in 70 to 80% of his pitches--or, as they politely called it back then, "pacing himself"--should be taken anywhere near as seriously as pitchers from 1920 on, who've had to throw real pitches ALL the time.

And again, I still feel that way to a degree. BUT y'all have seen me hammer home the point that Johnson's greatness collapsed precipitately (and precipitously) in the exact year the live ball arrived, and he was never remotely THAT awesome again, though he had one truly great year in 1924, and an extremely good year in 1925.

Well, I'm reading that part of the Kavanagh bio now, and Johnson had a HUGE arm injury throughout the 1920 season and really shouldn't have pitched--except he accounted for a huge share of Clark Griffith's gate receipts. It also spilled over into 1921. I'm still not buying that the advent of the live ball didn't hurt him, but he pitched in a very gutsy, career-endangering way in those first two live-ball years, and naturally pitched like crap. Seen in that light, those two years don't "out" him nearly like I said. Alexander's having a one year grace period in 1920, then falling apart, is actually much better evidence, though his alcoholism (which IS a progressive disease, b.t.w.) is a better explanation, and was probably exacerbated by whatever treatment he got for injuries sustained in WW I.

And the net result of all of this? I NOW have Johnson at #4 for all MLB pitchers, with only Pedro having a chance to catch him in the next 10 to 15 years, and as I said recently, he'd have to become an 8-inning pitcher again. Anyone wanna bet on that? Also, I am distinctly open to the chance Johnson should go ahead of Clemens and/or Maddux, though I'll say this right now: DO NOT try and tell me that Johnson's immense numbers of innings pitched is the reasons, because I am not going to buy that.

But anyway, y'all have RADICALLY reformed me on Johnson. Thanks for that.

(3) VARIOUS OTHERS Y'all have knocked Foxx WAY down, permanently out of his #2 spot at 1B, and have otherwise wrought havoc on my ratings at 1B, with me now having Jeff Bagwell, of all people, at #2, though there are half a dozen I could justify putting there. THIS IS TO SAY: I have learned so much about the pros and cons of these guys, I am now comfortable in saying only the unutterably obvious: Gehrig is #1. After that, Y'all have me so damned confused about Mize, Foxx, Greenberg, McCovey, Killebrew, Thomas and the man I might consider Bags' tightest rival, because I don't care near as much as almost everyone else here does about "peaks": the great Eddie Murray.

But again, y'all have my mind reeling, with more questions than answers. And that's a good thing. It shows I have mental fluidity, an open mind, catholic (small "c," n.b.) reasoning powers, etc. But DAMMIT, I'm up in the air here, as with RHP's.

(4) At 2B, I've already said it: I now see it as Morgan still clearly #1, but you've taught me not to place any emphasis on the years Robinson lost to the war and segregation, and after due anguishing, I've swallowed hard and put Hornsby ahead of Collins, where he belongs. So again y'all helped me get this one in the order I'm comfy with.

I haven't changed my order at 3B, LF or CF, BUT, the manner in which to deal with the problem of ranking Bonds historically has received a lot of discussion here, and the discussions I didn't engender, I've followed like a hawk. I've learned a lot from it, and I thank y'all for it.

In summary: No, none of this would have happened, were I not a guy with an open mind and the ability to separate wheat from chaff. But YOU ALL have played a much bigger role than that. Your give-and-take rapport with me has taken a 48-year student of baseball history, a guy who's obsessed over the subject forever, and has altered a great many of his views--some of them radically--while simultaneously heaping me with praise for my writing skills, my infrequent motions of analytical insight, my intellectual honesty, etc.

Well, thanks for those kind words, but my debt to y'all is far greater and frankly incapable of repayment. As you'll know from past posts, I was studying guys like Waddell, Joss, Walsh, Three-Finger Brown, etc., as well as the de rigeur guys like Mathewson. And, truth be told, I thought I'd have a ton to offer here in the way of info, since at my other site I'm the ONLY guy who knows ANY of this stuff. Well, many of you have made me feel like I've offered a lot of constructive informations, analysis and other input, but trust me, YOU have done a lot more to educate ME, than vice versa.

When I tell my long-time baseball fanatic friends of that fact, they'll be stunned. But it's clearly true, and I should know.

Sultan, while many people have been enormously helpful in getting me to rethink many of my ideas, there's no doubt you and Bill Burgess have headed the hit parade. THANK YOU, more than you are likely to realize.

Jim

[pheasant]

I must admit the Smelser's book on the Babe is my new favorite. That was a great recommendation from Sultan and Shoeless. In this book, Wait Hoyt mentioned that George Uhle threw a good slider.

I had to see if the Babe could hit a slider, so I looked up the games in which Ruth faced Uhle every time during the game(i.e, CG for Uhle, or 8+ IP in which Ruth faced Uhle every time). Note: This list excludes many games in which Uhle got shelled; many of which Ruth hit HRs in. However, I couldn't get accurate stats for Ruth in those games, so I excluded them. Most of the games listed below are games in which Uhle won. It even includes a few shutouts.

So far, he's what I've got:
Complete games or 8+ innings in which all of Ruth’s at-bats are against Uhle

8/20/19 0/1 3 BB
5/17/21 2/2 double HR, 2 BB, Yankees lose 4-2
6/8/13 0/1 1 BB
9/24/21 1/2 1 BB Yankees lose 9-0
8/22/22 0/4
9/24/22 1/3 1 BB
6/9/23 1/4
7/14/23 0/4
7/17/23 1/2 2 BB
8/4/23 1/3 2 BB
8/26/23 2/3 1 BB
9/16/23 3/3 1 HR 1 2b 1 BB
6/15/24 2/4 1 2b
Total: 15/37 2 Hrs 2 2bs 14 BB

Ruth vs Uhle and his slider: .405/.569/.622

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I must admit the Smelser's book on the Babe is my new favorite. That was a great recommendation from Sultan and Shoeless. In this book, Wait Hoyt mentioned that George Uhle threw a good slider.

I had to see if the Babe could hit a slider, so I looked up the games in which Ruth faced Uhle every time during the game(i.e, CG for Uhle, or 8+ IP in which Ruth faced Uhle every time). Note: This list excludes many games in which Uhle got shelled; many of which Ruth hit HRs in. However, I couldn't get accurate stats for Ruth in those games, so I excluded them. Most of the games listed below are games in which Uhle won. It even includes a few shutouts.

So far, he's what I've got:
Complete games or 8+ innings in which all of Ruth’s at-bats are against Uhle

8/20/19 0/1 3 BB
5/17/21 2/2 double HR, 2 BB, Yankees lose 4-2
6/8/13 0/1 1 BB
9/24/21 1/2 1 BB Yankees lose 9-0
8/22/22 0/4
9/24/22 1/3 1 BB
6/9/23 1/4
7/14/23 0/4
7/17/23 1/2 2 BB
8/4/23 1/3 2 BB
8/26/23 2/3 1 BB
9/16/23 3/3 1 HR 1 2b 1 BB
6/15/24 2/4 1 2b
Total: 15/37 2 Hrs 2 2bs 14 BB

Ruth vs Uhle and his slider: .405/.569/.622

Glad you liked the book. It's tops on my list, followed by Jenkinson's, Creamer's, and The Babe In Red Stockings.

Pitchers back then threw a lot more pitches than people today are aware of. Think about it. Hours upon hours of train trips and other various gaps of time spent doing nothing but talking baseball and experimenting. I've said it before but it will apparently never sink in. These guys were truly pioneers in terms of trial and error. Future eras should be thanking them.

Ruth could indeed hit every kind of pitch, and it's not necessary to break every single one down, although the effort you put into that is appreciated. Lefties, spitballs, knucklers, sliders, curves, slow-balls, the fastest heaters from Grove, Johnson, and the best the Negro Leagues had to offer...it's been put to bed hopefully.

He could hit any kind of pitching, in any park, and could hit like the same Ruth. The only thing that wouldn't result in him being a similar Ruth, numbers wise, would be if they never altered Fenway, and he stayed in Boston.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I must admit the Smelser's book on the Babe is my new favorite. That was a great recommendation from Sultan and Shoeless. In this book, Wait Hoyt mentioned that George Uhle threw a good slider.

Always my favorite. Not a put down of Creamer's book, another very good book.
Smelser's contains comments from opponents, teammates, details on specific games, his tape measure jobs, the bats he used , too much to list, great book.