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**Sultan_1895-1948** · 08-16-2014, 07:48 PM

Please do.

Here's the away games started

05/20/19 - 1-4, HR, BB, K---------a
05/26/19 - 0-3, BB---------------------a
05/30/19 - 3-5, double, 2 singles, K----------a
07/17/19 - 1-4, single-------------a
07/21/19 - 1-4, HR, BB-------------a
08/17/19 - 0-4----------------a

6 H
24 AB
3 BB
3 singles
1 double
2 HR

Subtracting that from his road numbers.....

68 H
208 AB
45 BB
30 singles
14 doubles
6 triples
18 HR
3 HBP
3 SH

**Sultan_1895-1948** · 08-16-2014, 08:11 PM

Top five favorite quotes regarding Ruth.......

From: The Life That Ruth Built - by Marshall Smelser

"Babe Ruth was no longer seen as useful in baseball except for ritual occasions which meant nothing in the records but could sell tickets. Ruth was a kind of living ornament, a living shrine, a walking reliquary of baseball records. He found it very hard being a Grand Old Man in his early forties.

If Babe Ruth had lived into his sixties he would have mellowed into the phase of a man's life when he puts aside many of this world's commitments. Consiously or unconsciously, old people usually adjust their demands to what is possible, in order to get peace of mind. Ruth never reached that age. He lived as do aging dandies, decayed professional beauties, forgotten child screen stars, and most of the ten thousand major-league ballplayers in the first years after eclipse, fretting and in pain until they link up with reality in a healthy way. Ruth was an unwanted man and didn't live to be old enough not to care."

**drstrangelove** · 08-16-2014, 09:27 PM

Ok.

The games logs for Ruth on BBRef don't tie out to Babe Ruth's main page.

1) The main page says in 1916 he played 67 games, had 136 AB, 10 BB, 0 HBP. The game logs say he had 68 games, 138 AB, 9 BB and 1 HBP

2) The main page says in 1918 he had 58 BB, 3 SH. The game logs say he had 59 BB and 4 SH.

3) The main page says in 1919 he had 3 SH. The game logs say he had 4 SH.

In total his main page is missing 1 game, 2 AB, 1 HBP and 2 SH. This looks like why his PA-AB-BB-HBP-SH=5 (for 1914-1919), rather than zero. His career has the same +5 discrepancy.

**Sultan_1895-1948** · 08-16-2014, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by drstrangelove View Post

Ok.

The games logs for Ruth on BBRef don't tie out to Babe Ruth's main page.

1) The main page says in 1916 he played 67 games, had 136 AB, 10 BB, 0 HBP. The game logs say he had 68 games, 138 AB, 9 BB and 1 HBP

2) The main page says in 1918 he had 58 BB, 3 SH. The game logs say he had 59 BB and 4 SH.

3) The main page says in 1919 he had 3 SH. The game logs say he had 4 SH.

In total his main page is missing 1 game, 2 AB, 1 HBP and 2 SH. This looks like why his PA-AB-BB-HBP-SH=5 (for 1914-1919), rather than zero. His career has the same +5 discrepancy.

All we're talking about is his 1919 road slash when he wasn't pitching. I already posted the numbers and they are accurate. If 1919 is missing a SH that just means one less PA when figuring OBP so it'd be higher.

**drstrangelove** · 08-16-2014, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post

All we're talking about is his 1919 road slash when he wasn't pitching. I already posted the numbers and they are accurate. If 1919 is missing a SH that just means one less PA when figuring OBP so it'd be higher.

No. He's not missing a PA. He's missing the SH. In fact, he has no PA discrepancies which is why I didn't post a PA discrepancy. He has data missing as to what he did in his PA, not the PA itself. And I'm not responding to 1919 road data about when he wasn't pitching.

I'm responding to Babe Ruth's 1916, 1918, 1919 seasons and career stats in a thread called Babe Ruth. There are discrepancies and his career stats are possibly wrong. I only found it because I was looking at the same data for those years and realized that I couldn't tie out the slugging averages from the logs for 1914-19 to the main page for 1914-19.

And OBP isn't done off PA according to BBRef (and while SF are used, SH aren't, so it has no effect), but his 2 missing AB and missing HBP will affect his OBP (and BA and SLG.)

So....if his game logs are right, his slash lines change for 1918 and 1919, but his career barely stays the same. He was 3 AB away from dropping slugging to .689, so if the logs are right he is 1 away now.

**Sultan_1895-1948** · 08-16-2014, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by drstrangelove View Post

No. He's not missing a PA. He's missing the SH. In fact, he has no PA discrepancies which is why I didn't post a PA discrepancy. He has data missing as to what he did in his PA, not the PA itself. And I'm not responding to 1919 road data about when he wasn't pitching.

I'm responding to Babe Ruth's 1916, 1918, 1919 seasons and career stats in a thread called Babe Ruth. There are discrepancies and his career stats are possibly wrong. I only found it because I was looking at the same data for those years and realized that I couldn't tie out the slugging averages from the logs for 1914-19 to the main page for 1914-19.

And OBP isn't done off PA according to BBRef (and while SF are used, SH aren't, so it has no effect), but his 2 missing AB and missing HBP will affect his OBP (and BA and SLG.)

So....if his game logs are right, his slash lines change for 1918 and 1919, but his career barely stays the same. He was 3 AB away from dropping slugging to .689, so if the logs are right he is 1 away now.

So....I posted his 1919 offensive slash as a road player when he didn't start a game.

And that led us to this wild tangent?

Yes, SH has an impact on OBP.

Hits + BB+ HBP / PA-SH = OBP

Instead of looking at other years besides 1919, are you questioning his road slash while not a pitcher in 1919? You do the calculations and see what you come up with, okay?

**drstrangelove** · 08-17-2014, 06:12 AM

Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post

So....I posted his 1919 offensive slash as a road player when he didn't start a game.

And that led us to this wild tangent?

There is no wild tangent. I'm not posting something about his 1919 road stats. I'm posting something about his stats for 1916, 1918 and 1919.

Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post

Yes, SH has an impact on OBP.

Hits + BB+ HBP / PA-SH = OBP

Per BBRef, the formula is:

(Hits + BB+ HBP) /(AB + BB+ HBP + SF)

BBRef's formula matches what is posted for Ruth's OBP in 1915-19: .376, .322, .385, .411, .456

Using your formula, there are errors since your formula says 1915-19 should be .376, .318, .385, .409, .456. Obviously, both 1916 and 1918 are following the BBRef formula, not yours. The issue isn't which formula is right, because technically they are exactly the same.

Afaik, excluding CI (catcher interference or perhaps interference on the runner going to first) the issue is PA-(AB + BB+ HBP + SF + SH) = 0 needs to be true and it isn't. BBRef's formula "works" because it ignores the fact that PA-(AB + BB+ HBP + SF + SH) = 5. In almost every case the formula needs to be zero.

**Ubiquitous** · 08-17-2014, 06:17 AM

PA-SH should be the same as (AB+BB+HBP+SF)

**Ubiquitous** · 08-17-2014, 06:26 AM

Anyway, anytime there is a discrepancy between game logs and the seasonal line just head over to Retrosheet. They have a discrepancy log for players.

Babe Ruth

Code:

 ID     Team      Game      Type Pos Cat Retro   Off Code(s)       Notes
1914A0691 BOS A  7-16-1914       P     IP      3     4 SWAP          

1915A0045 BOS A                  D P   DP      4     3               DPs not shown on Official sheets

1916A0074 BOS A                  D P   DP      8     6               DPs not shown on Official sheets
1916A0073 BOS A                  O     HBP     1     0               HBPs not shown on Official sheets
1916A0072 BOS A  4-22-1916       O     BB      0     1 OPP,PAA       
1916A0070 BOS A  8- 1-1916       O     AB      1     0               
1916A0069 BOS A  8- 1-1916       O     G       1     0               
1916A0071 BOS A  8-29-1916(2)    O     AB      1     0               

1917A0980 BOS A                  P     IP  326.2 326.1               Official sheets shows 326.2 IP
1917A0983 BOS A  4-16-1917       P     BB      4     0 OPP           
1917A0981 BOS A  4-16-1917       P     SO      7     0 OPP           
1917A0986 BOS A  4-25-1917       P     R       4     5 OPP           
1917A0982 BOS A  5-24-1917       P     SO      5     3 OPP           
1917A0987 BOS A  6- 1-1917       P     R       3     4 OPP           
1917A0984 BOS A  8- 3-1917       P     BB      1     0 OPP           
1917A0985 BOS A  8-18-1917(2)    P     BB      3     4 OPP           
1917A0988 BOS A  9-24-1917       P     WP      2     0               

   ID     Team      Game      Type Pos Cat Retro   Off Code(s)       Notes
1918A0813 BOS A                  P     AB    583   584 ADD           Official sheets show 583 AB
1918A0490 BOS A  4-24-1918       P     SH      0     3 OPP           
1918A0487 BOS A  5- 9-1918       P     IP    9.2     9               
1918A0022 BOS A  5-16-1918       O     BB      1     0 SWAP,PAA      
1918A0023 BOS A  6- 4-1918       O     SH      1     0 OPP,PAA       
1918A0491 BOS A  6- 7-1918       P     SH      1     0 OPP           
1918A0489 BOS A  7- 5-1918       P     BB      4     0 OPP           
1918A0488 BOS A  7- 5-1918       P     SO      3     0 OPP           

1919A0073 BOS A                  D OF  G     110   111               Official sheets show 110 G in OF
1919A0070 BOS A  5-30-1919(2)    O     SH      1     0 OPP,PAA       
1919A0071 BOS A  7-31-1919       D 1B  G       1     0               No 1B in game at end

**drstrangelove** · 08-17-2014, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by Ubiquitous View Post

Anyway, anytime there is a discrepancy between game logs and the seasonal line just head over to Retrosheet. They have a discrepancy log for players.

Babe Ruth

Code:

 ID     Team      Game      Type Pos Cat Retro   Off Code(s)       Notes
1914A0691 BOS A  7-16-1914       P     IP      3     4 SWAP          

1915A0045 BOS A                  D P   DP      4     3               DPs not shown on Official sheets

1916A0074 BOS A                  D P   DP      8     6               DPs not shown on Official sheets
1916A0073 BOS A                  O     HBP     1     0               HBPs not shown on Official sheets
1916A0072 BOS A  4-22-1916       O     BB      0     1 OPP,PAA       
1916A0070 BOS A  8- 1-1916       O     AB      1     0               
1916A0069 BOS A  8- 1-1916       O     G       1     0               
1916A0071 BOS A  8-29-1916(2)    O     AB      1     0               

1917A0980 BOS A                  P     IP  326.2 326.1               Official sheets shows 326.2 IP
1917A0983 BOS A  4-16-1917       P     BB      4     0 OPP           
1917A0981 BOS A  4-16-1917       P     SO      7     0 OPP           
1917A0986 BOS A  4-25-1917       P     R       4     5 OPP           
1917A0982 BOS A  5-24-1917       P     SO      5     3 OPP           
1917A0987 BOS A  6- 1-1917       P     R       3     4 OPP           
1917A0984 BOS A  8- 3-1917       P     BB      1     0 OPP           
1917A0985 BOS A  8-18-1917(2)    P     BB      3     4 OPP           
1917A0988 BOS A  9-24-1917       P     WP      2     0               

   ID     Team      Game      Type Pos Cat Retro   Off Code(s)       Notes
1918A0813 BOS A                  P     AB    583   584 ADD           Official sheets show 583 AB
1918A0490 BOS A  4-24-1918       P     SH      0     3 OPP           
1918A0487 BOS A  5- 9-1918       P     IP    9.2     9               
1918A0022 BOS A  5-16-1918       O     BB      1     0 SWAP,PAA      
1918A0023 BOS A  6- 4-1918       O     SH      1     0 OPP,PAA       
1918A0491 BOS A  6- 7-1918       P     SH      1     0 OPP           
1918A0489 BOS A  7- 5-1918       P     BB      4     0 OPP           
1918A0488 BOS A  7- 5-1918       P     SO      3     0 OPP           

1919A0073 BOS A                  D OF  G     110   111               Official sheets show 110 G in OF
1919A0070 BOS A  5-30-1919(2)    O     SH      1     0 OPP,PAA       
1919A0071 BOS A  7-31-1919       D 1B  G       1     0               No 1B in game at end

Okay thanks. This confirms that they know about the discrepancies. I didn't know there was a place that they actually published that information and I was wondering if they knew.

**Sultan_1895-1948** · 08-17-2014, 08:49 AM

Doctor,

Again....

I posted

Ruth's offensive numbers during his 15 starts in 1919

05/03/19 - 1-3, double, BB, K
05/20/19 - 1-4, HR, BB, K
05/26/19 - 0-3, BB
05/30/19 - 3-5, double, 2 singles, K
06/05/19 - 1-1, single
06/10/19 - 1-3, double, BB, K
06/14/19 - 2-6, 2 singles
06/20/19 - 1-3, triple, BB
06/25/19 - 0-4
07/17/19 - 1-4, single
07/21/19 - 1-4, HR, BB
07/25/19 - 0-3, BB
08/17/19 - 0-4
09/01/19 - 1-3, triple, BB
09/20/19 - 1-3, HR, BB, K
------------------------------------------
.264/.371/.566

His overall slash was .322/.456/.657

His road slash was .319/.442/.694

His road slash when not starting on the mound was .327/.453/.712

That only deals with 1919. No other year. And it only deals with his offensive slash in away games where he didn't start.

Then you immediately posted....

Going to re do this and see.

Was that in response to a post other than mine?

I assumed it wasn't, so I posted....

Please do.

Here's the away games started

05/20/19 - 1-4, HR, BB, K---------a
05/26/19 - 0-3, BB---------------------a
05/30/19 - 3-5, double, 2 singles, K----------a
07/17/19 - 1-4, single-------------a
07/21/19 - 1-4, HR, BB-------------a
08/17/19 - 0-4----------------a

6 H
24 AB
3 BB
3 singles
1 double
2 HR

Subtracting that from his road numbers.....

68 H
208 AB
45 BB
30 singles
14 doubles
6 triples
18 HR
3 HBP
3 SH

How did any year other than 1919 become involved?

And I'll ask again. How far off am I with the .327/.453/.712 slash I calculated? What did you un-earth and how much does it change it. Please post the correct slash.

**drstrangelove** · 08-17-2014, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post

Then you immediately posted....

Was that in response to a post other than mine?

I assumed it wasn't, so I posted....

No, I'm sorry.

I was looking at the numbers you posted, but I couldn't get my data to tie out. I had wanted to post something about 1918-19 but then couldn't tie out the game logs.

So I posted something, but then deleted it and re-posted this: :"Going to re do this and see."---then I left to pick someone up at the train station!

So, yes and no, your posts inspired me, but my comments were about the data errors I found. I was confused since seeing a discrepancy is rare. (I think I saw it once before but I don't recall who it was.)

I'm not questioning what you posted about 1919. My apologies.

**drstrangelove** · 08-17-2014, 09:03 AM

Code:

	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	IBB	SO	HBP	SH	SF	ROE	GDP	SB	CS	BA	OBP	SLG	 OPS	Pos
1918	50	39	3	7	3	0	0	3	11	0	9	0	0	0	0	0	2	0	.179	.360	.256	 .616	b4 P
1918	43	38	6	15	6	3	0	6	5	0	4	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	.395	.465	.711	1.176	P
																								
1919	65	52	11	16	4	1	3	13	12	0	5	1	0	0	0	0	1	0	.308	.446	.596	1.042	b4 P
1919	61	54	9	12	2	2	2	8	7	0	4	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	.222	.311	.444	 .756	P
																								
total	115	91	14	23	7	1	3	16	23	0	14	1	0	0	0	0	3	0	.253	.409	.451	 .859	b4 P
total	104	92	15	27	8	5	2	14	12	0	8	0	0	0	0	0	2	0	.293	.375	.554	 .929	P

1918	41	33	6	12	1	1	1	7	6	0	5	1	1	0	0	0	1	0	.364	.475	.545	1.020	after P
1919	60	50	13	19	5	1	6	17	9	0	4	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	.380	.475	.880	1.355	after P
total	101	83	19	31	6	2	7	24	15	0	9	1	2	0	0	0	1	0	.373	.475	.747	1.222	after P

Not exactly the same stuff, but could be considered interesting regarding Ruth's hitting while pitching. I used to have a belief that Ruth's pitching reduced his batting effectiveness directly. That is, when he pitched, he didn't hit well, or when he pitched, he would hit poorly the next day. Pitching is strenuous and should in theory make one tired.

I looked at two things:

Set (1) Ruth's performance as a hitter when pitching

The codes for this are to the right under "Pos." b4 P=batting the day before pitching (and if a double header, game 1 of a DH where he pitched game.) P=pitching that day. 2.) If there was even a 1 day gap, it's excluded. So you can see 1918-19, and the total for the 2 years. Overall, he hit as well on the day he pitched as the game before he pitched, which tends to mean that hitting on the day he was pitching was not effected. If it did, he should hit worse the day he pitched than the day before he pitched.

Set (2) Ruth's performance as a hitter immediately following his role as a pitcher

The codes for this are to the right under "Pos." after P=batting the day after pitching (and if a double header, game 2 of a DH where he played in game 1.) If there was even a 1 day gap, it's excluded. So you can see 1918-19, and the total for the 2 years. Overall, he hit really well on the day after he pitched (better than his overall averages for 1918-19), which tends to mean that pitching a game did not reduce his effectiveness as a hitter immediately after. If it did, his hitting on the day after he pitched should be worse that his overall hitting.

Caveats: 1) these stats will not tie to any particular splits for reasons that are stated. Games are excluded where he pitched but didn't play the day before (set (1)) and games in which he pitched but didn't play the day after (set (2)). 2) These stats are not adjusted in any fashion for H/A or park. It's possible that if adjusted we might see very important differences. 3) These are fairly small sample sizes. 4) It's possible that Ruth had a different batting strategy on the days he pitched.

It's difficult to draw a conclusion that Ruth was directly hurt by pitching. While he might have if one makes allowances for parks and opponents or larger sample sizes, the numbers above don't demonstrate that. This doesn't imply that being primarily a pitcher from 1915-17 didn't effect his hitting as he would not bat for days at a time, just that in 1918-19, it's hard to discern an effect from the above data.

**drstrangelove** · 08-17-2014, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post

Please do.

Here's the away games started

05/20/19 - 1-4, HR, BB, K---------a
05/26/19 - 0-3, BB---------------------a
05/30/19 - 3-5, double, 2 singles, K----------a
07/17/19 - 1-4, single-------------a
07/21/19 - 1-4, HR, BB-------------a
08/17/19 - 0-4----------------a

6 H
24 AB
3 BB
3 singles
1 double
2 HR

Subtracting that from his road numbers.....

68 H
208 AB
45 BB
30 singles
14 doubles
6 triples
18 HR
3 HBP
3 SH

Why exclude 5/15/1919? He didn't start, but he pitched innings 2-12.

**drstrangelove** · 08-17-2014, 09:43 AM

Code:

PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	IBB	SO	HBP	SH	SF	ROE	GDP	SB	CS	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS		
39	33	6	8	2	2	1	5	6	0	3	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	.242	.359	.515	.874		H
31	28	4	6	1	0	2	7	3	0	3	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.214	.290	.464	.755		A

70	61	10	14	3	2	3	12	9	0	6	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	.230	.329	.492	.820		total

Here's what I have for 1919 H-A-Total as a Pitcher. 17 games

Code:

PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	IBB	SO	HBP	SH	SF	ROE	GDP	SB	CS	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS		
37	27	8	9	5	0	0	5	8	0	3	0	2	0	0	0	2	0	.333	.486	.519	1.004		H
41	38	5	14	4	3	2	8	3	0	7	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.368	.415	.789	1.204		A
																							
78	65	13	23	9	3	2	13	11	0	10	0	2	0	0	0	2	0	.354	.447	.677	1.124		total

Here's what I have for 1918 H-A-Total as a Pitcher. 20 games

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