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  • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    I have a question for you Babe Ruth experts. This a young player (22 years old) in Japan right now who hits and pitches. He throws 102 mph and hit for power. He's hitting .322/.420/.603. As a starting pitcher he's 12-4 W-L, 2.12 ERA, 151 K, 41 BB in 123 IP. His Japanese team allows him to play both ways. There is debate about when eventually comes to the majors would a major league team allow him to play both ways? I was curious how did Ruth handle being a two way player and what what led him to abandon pitching altogether? Was it more his choice or did his team eventually force his hand?
    I've run several stats on when Ruth was pitching full-time(at least 4 starts in a month). His hitting stats dropped substantially when he was asked to pitch 35+ innings a month. Also, Ruth complained about how tired he was, particularly during the 1918 season. So his pitching was reduced drastically in 1919. I'll see if I can dig up his stats.

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    • Originally posted by pheasant View Post
      I've run several stats on when Ruth was pitching full-time(at least 4 starts in a month). His hitting stats dropped substantially when he was asked to pitch 35+ innings a month. Also, Ruth complained about how tired he was, particularly during the 1918 season. So his pitching was reduced drastically in 1919. I'll see if I can dig up his stats.
      Thanks Pheasant! How was Ruth used? Was he given any rest between starts or did he play fulltime with no rest? The Japanese kid doesn't play the day before nor the day after his starts.
      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
        Thanks Pheasant! How was Ruth used? Was he given any rest between starts or did he play fulltime with no rest? The Japanese kid doesn't play the day before nor the day after his starts.
        Ruth still played the next day. He wasn't rested properly. Here's the breakdown that I had run previously.

        listed below are Ruth's hitting stats, 1918-1919 in which he started fewer than 4 games in a month:

        1918 May-July, 61 games, 224 ab, 40 runs, 67 hits, 11 HR, 49 RBI, 37 BB, 0 HBP,141 TB .299/.398/.629
        1919 Aug-Sep, 49 games,158 AB, 44 runs, 51 hits, 13 HR, 47 rbi, 45 BB, 4 HBP, 111 TB, .323/.483/.703
        Total, 1918-1919: 110 games, 382 AB, 84 runs, 24 HR, 96 RBI, 82 BB, .306/.436/.660


        1918-1919, when Ruth pitched 4+ games in a month:

        Ruth, 1918 8/1/18 until end of season: 25 games 81 AB, .284/.431/.358, 0 HRS, 9 RBI
        Ruth, 1919, April-July .321/.440/.631: 81 games, 274 AB, .321/.440/.631, 8 HR, 66 RBI
        Total, when Ruth pitched 4+ games a month, 1918-1919 , 106 games, 438 PA, 355 AB, .313 /.434/.566, 8 HR, 75 RBI
        Last edited by pheasant; 09-16-2016, 11:35 AM.

        Comment


        • Ruth's pitching was much better when he pitched 4+ games in a month while his hitting suffered. In 1918, his pitching arm carried his team to the pennant in a very tight race.

          Let's look at Ruth's last month of the season, 1916-1918(clutch month). This is for the regular season only. We already know about his 0.87 ERA in the Fall Classic.

          1918, August, 8 starts, 7 CG, 6-2 record, 1.73 ERA, opponents batted .188. One loss was a 2-1 CG.
          1917, Sep/Oct, 7 starts, 7 CG, 4-3 record, 1.89 ERA, opponents batted .219. Ruth was shutout twice and also lost a 2-1 game.
          1916, Sep/Oct, 8 starts, 6 CG, 6-1 record, 1.26 ERA, opponents batted .222
          1916-1918, 23 starts, 20 CG, 16-6 record, 1.61 ERA. of his 20 CG, gave up 2 or fewer runs 18 times, tossed 4 shutouts.
          Ruth also had a game in which he gave up 2 runs in 8.2 innings. Thus, he had 4 games with 3+ runs given up and 4 shutouts; not too shabby.
          This guy was VERY competitive down the stretch. Unfortunately, I couldn't find 1915 game logs, the year he was a 20 year old rookie. I'm very curious about how he finished 1915 since I know he was ticked off that he didn't get to pitch in that World Series. Perhaps the book "Babe Ruth in Red Stockings" will have the answer. I'll have to dig the book up. It's one of my favorites.

          So although Ruth's hitting plummeted in 1918 in August, his pitching was stellar.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
            I have a question for you Babe Ruth experts. This a young player (22 years old) in Japan right now who hits and pitches. He throws 102 mph and hit for power. He's hitting .322/.420/.603. As a starting pitcher he's 12-4 W-L, 2.12 ERA, 151 K, 41 BB in 123 IP. His Japanese team allows him to play both ways. There is debate about when eventually comes to the majors would a major league team allow him to play both ways? I was curious how did Ruth handle being a two way player and what what led him to abandon pitching altogether? Was it more his choice or did his team eventually force his hand?
            That is an incredible combo. I could see a team playing him in RF and beimg an emergency closer or something, at least while he's young. But teams baby starters way too much, for him to start and play the field every day. And thats what Ruth did for the last 6-8 weeks of 1918. How was he used? Like a rental mule. Before that point,bhe would occasionally play the field in between starts, usually filling in at first or in the OF when needed. It started to complain. His defection fron the club and his fued with Barrow was centered around him not wanting to do both roles.

            Heres a couple quotes.


            1916 World Series interview

            "At any rate I would like to go through an entire season playing regularly every day, in some position like first base. There is no discounting the fact that a pitcher is handicapped by not taking his regular turn against the opposing twirlers. A man needs that steady training day in and day out to put a finish on his work......The pitcher who can't get in there in a pinch and win his own game with a healthy wallop, isn't more than half earning his salary to my way of thinking."

            7/30/18 Sporting News interview....

            "I have tried to specialize in long ball hitting because I’m not fast, and then too, if a fellow gets out and pitches he hasn’t much in reserve to beat out bunts and such….While I have done it this season, I don’t think a pitcher can show to best advantage if he plays regularly. Pitching will affect one’s batting, there’s no doubt about it. It’s a tiresome business and when a fellow’s been through nine innings of it, he doesn’t feel much like getting out the next day and handling throws at first or chasing flies in the outfield….I’d like to tell you what kind of ball [pitch] I’m weak against but I don’t know myself. I’ve tried to find out so I could practice hitting that kind.”

            Comment


            • Good stuff, Sultan. The Japanese kid mostly DH's when he's not pitching. A I mentioned before he doesn't play on the days before and after he pitches.
              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

              Comment


              • I can't imagine Babe or any player, pitching in rotation and then playing in the field in between starts, even if playing first base.
                Asking too much, even at a young age. Also, although first base not as demanding as the outfield, batting, running the bases,standing on base, too much of a drain.
                Especially since they would be all day games, under the Sun and wearing those heavy flannel uniforms.
                For sure the hitting would suffer and probably the pitching.
                Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 09-16-2016, 12:17 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
                  I can't imagine Babe or any player, pitching in rotation and then playing in the field in between starts, even if playing first base.
                  Asking too much, even at a young age. Also, although first base not as demanding as the outfield, batting, running the bases, too much of a drain.
                  Especially since they would be all day games, under the Sun and wearing those heavy flannel uniforms.
                  For sure the hitting would suffer and probably the pitching.
                  I think you are correct, SHOE. Maybe starting pitching and DH part time is possible which is what the Japanse kid is doing. I can see maybe being a starting pitcher and a backup outfielder/pinch hitter.
                  Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                    I think you are correct, SHOE. Maybe starting pitching and DH part time is possible which is what the Japanse kid is doing. I can see maybe being a starting pitcher and a backup outfielder/pinch hitter.
                    That a possibility.
                    Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 09-16-2016, 12:42 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by pheasant View Post
                      Ruth's pitching was much better when he pitched 4+ games in a month while his hitting suffered. In 1918, his pitching arm carried his team to the pennant in a very tight race.

                      Let's look at Ruth's last month of the season, 1916-1918(clutch month). This is for the regular season only. We already know about his 0.87 ERA in the Fall Classic.

                      1918, August, 8 starts, 7 CG, 6-2 record, 1.73 ERA, opponents batted .188. One loss was a 2-1 CG.
                      1917, Sep/Oct, 7 starts, 7 CG, 4-3 record, 1.89 ERA, opponents batted .219. Ruth was shutout twice and also lost a 2-1 game.
                      1916, Sep/Oct, 8 starts, 6 CG, 6-1 record, 1.26 ERA, opponents batted .222
                      1916-1918, 23 starts, 20 CG, 16-6 record, 1.61 ERA. of his 20 CG, gave up 2 or fewer runs 18 times, tossed 4 shutouts.
                      Ruth also had a game in which he gave up 2 runs in 8.2 innings. Thus, he had 4 games with 3+ runs given up and 4 shutouts; not too shabby.
                      This guy was VERY competitive down the stretch. Unfortunately, I couldn't find 1915 game logs, the year he was a 20 year old rookie. I'm very curious about how he finished 1915 since I know he was ticked off that he didn't get to pitch in that World Series. Perhaps the book "Babe Ruth in Red Stockings" will have the answer. I'll have to dig the book up. It's one of my favorites.

                      So although Ruth's hitting plummeted in 1918 in August, his pitching was stellar.
                      1915, not looking good early in the season, April 16 -May 29, W/L record 1-5.
                      How did he finish, June 2-Oct 6 he was 17-3. For some reason in 1915, he went two weeks between starts, July 25 to August 10.

                      Batting 42 games, 32 pitching and 10 pinch hitting (1 for 10) .315, 4 home runs 21 RBI and 23 SO.
                      Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 09-16-2016, 12:43 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
                        1915, not looking good early in the season, April 16 -May 29, W/L record 1-5.
                        How did he finish, June 2-Oct 6 he was 17-3. For some reason in 1915, he went two weeks between starts, July 25 to August 10.

                        Batting 42 games, 32 pitching and 10 pinch hitting (1 for 10) .315, 4 home runs 21 RBI and 23 SO.
                        Nice one, Shoeless.

                        That means that from 6/2/1915-5/17/1917, Ruth pitched 564 innings and went 48-16 with a 1.91 ERA with 11 Shutouts.

                        Comment


                        • As if .690 needed to be put into further perspective.......

                          Ted Williams was a great slugger. The numbers tell us he was the second greatest slugger in history, with .634. That is 56 points lower than Ruth's career .690 SA. If you go 56 points from Williams, it takes you down to #10 all-time, Joe DiMaggio. Another 56 points from DiMaggio, and we're down to #57 Mo Vaughn.

                          Williams slugged .652 at home and .615 on the road. Babe slugged .701 at home and .683 on the road.

                          Let's try a little something, using Ruth's ROAD NUMBERS ONLY.

                          1. We will exclude Ruth's four best seasons, 1920, 1921, 1923, and 1924.

                          2. We will include full time pitching seasons of 1916 and 1917 along with part time pitching seasons of 1918 and 1919.

                          3. We will include his two down seasons of 1922 and 1925.

                          4. We will include 1930-1935, his decline seasons.

                          When we do that, using his road numbers only, Ruth is at .628 SA. That .628 is still 13 points better than Williams' career road SA, and would still be good for fourth all-time in SA, a full 19 points ahead of Foxx.

                          If we choose to include 1926-1935, rather than 1930-1935, Ruth's SA is at .664; which is twelve points better than Williams career HOME SA, 30 points better than his OVERALL SA, and 49 points better than his ROAD SA.

                          TB-----AB----ROAD

                          36-----71----1916
                          28-----66----1917
                          101----172---1918
                          161----232---1919
                          156----211---1922
                          93-----156---1925
                          187----274---1930
                          195----267---1931
                          157----218---1932
                          122----245---1933
                          86-----175---1934
                          19-----47----1935

                          1341---2134---.628 SA

                          191-----254---1926
                          221-----287---1927
                          191-----276---1928
                          203-----280---1929

                          2147----3231 = .664

                          Comment


                          • Ruth's .690 slugging percentage has always impressed me. It's an amazing number extremely unlikley to ever be surpassed or even approached. I look at it this way. As you know I'm big fan of Sadaharu Oh. He was an incredible slugger in his league. Playing in a lower LQ league Oh hit 868 home runs and slugged over .706+ NINE TIMES including a .761 and .755 season. Yet he ended up with "only" a career .634 slugging percentage (ironically, the same as Ted Williams).
                            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                            Comment


                            • I'm not sure how Oh aged but what really helped Ruth offset the slow start due to pitching and hitting in Fenway, was a truly legendary decline phase. He really didn't " drop off" until his last couple years. At that point he could still hit very well when healthy, even in 1935, as Jenkinson has fully documented. Problem was, he just couldn't stay healthy.

                              Through age 24 - .568 SA
                              Through age 27 - .696 SA
                              Through age 30 - .697 SA
                              Through age 33 - .709 SA
                              Through age 36 - .709 SA
                              Through age 38 - .699 SA
                              Through age 40 - .690 SA

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
                                I'm not sure how Oh aged but what really helped Ruth offset the slow start due to pitching and hitting in Fenway, was a truly legendary decline phase. He really didn't " drop off" until his last couple years. At that point he could still hit very well when healthy, even in 1935, as Jenkinson has fully documented. Problem was, he just couldn't stay healthy.

                                Through age 24 - .568 SA
                                Through age 27 - .696 SA
                                Through age 30 - .697 SA
                                Through age 33 - .709 SA
                                Through age 36 - .709 SA
                                Through age 38 - .699 SA
                                Through age 40 - .690 SA
                                Weren't the Babe's legs shot by 1934 or was it 1935? What kind of leg problems did he have? Could modern weigh training and/or physical therapy have extended his career?

                                Here are Oh's career slugging percentage after each season. He peaked at age 37, had a career .648 slugging percentage at the end of the 1977 season. It's amazing that Oh raised his career slugging percentage every season from age 19 through age 30.

                                19- .316
                                20- .407
                                21- .422
                                22- .469
                                23- .510
                                24- .550
                                25- .567
                                26- .585
                                27- .601
                                28- .614
                                29- .621
                                30- .629
                                31- .627
                                32- .629
                                33- .637
                                34- .644
                                35- .640
                                36- .645
                                37- .648
                                38- .646
                                39- .642
                                40- .634
                                Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 09-20-2016, 03:30 PM.
                                Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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