*Babe Ruth Thread*

[pheasant]

One of the Ruth books that I read mentioned that he blew out his other knee in September of 1932 and was never again the same player. Also, his manager forbade him from playing golf, which probably had a hand in Ruth blowing out his knee that year. This caused me to look at Ruth's stats in 1932. He was still chugging along nicely until September. I use the term chugging because Ruth had an impossible time running the bases. It only got worse when he injured his other knee in September.
Despite his achy knees, his stats through August were at .351/.498/.677 with 39 HRS and 132 RBI. In September, he went .212/.366/.455 with 2 HRS and 5 RBI. He blew out his knee that month and missed 16 days. Also, Ruth could no longer run. That paltry line of .351/.498/.677 was a Ruth that was slowed down so much, that he could only run out 13 doubles and 5 triples for the whole season. Even Mantle would be embarrassed that low of a number for combined doubles and triples.

It's interesting, because I think Ruth had a shot at MVP in 1932 until he injured his knee, despite Foxx's insane year. Foxx through August was at 48 HRS, 142 RBI, .359/.466/.739. Sure, he was ahead of Ruth. But the gap isn't that big. But here's the kicker. Let's look at their road stats for the entire year.

Ruth: 61 games, 22 HR, 68 RBI, .358/.496/.720, sOPS+ of 239
Foxx: 77 games, 27 HR, 74 RBI, .341/.427/.682, sOPS+ of 208

[pheasant]

Ruth's slugging% is pretty incredible. If we changed all of his triples into strikeouts(136 triples), his career slugging% would still be .641.

Better yet, let's penalize Ruth by removing all of his singles from his best 5 year span, which was from 1920-24(.370/.511/.777). He had 433 singles during that time frame. If we do that, his career AVG drops down to a rather Pedestrian .2905. That penalty drops Ruth's career AVG from 9th best all time down to 366th best all-time, tied with some guys named John Anderson and Frank Baumholtz. However, his slug% drops down to .6382, still the best in MLB history.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Weren't the Babe's legs shot by 1934 or was it 1935? What kind of leg problems did he have? Could modern weigh training and/or physical therapy have extended his career?

Here are Oh's career slugging percentage after each season. He peaked at age 37, had a career .648 slugging percentage at the end of the 1977 season. It's amazing that Og raised his career slugging percentage every season from age 19 through age 30.

19- .316
20- .407
21- .422
22- .469
23- .510
24- .550
25- .567
26- .585
27- .601
28- .614
29- .621
30- .629
31- .627
32- .629
33- .637
34- .644
35- .640
36- .645
37- .648
38- .646
39- .642
40- .634

Oh yeah his legs were pretty much shot. It didn't help that the Yanks (or anyone back then for that matter) didn't understand how to handle an aging athlete. They babied him to an absurd degree, well beyond just banning him frim golf. That was much needed, low impact exercise. It falls right in line with one generation benefitting from the last, whether it's regarding injury prevention/rehab or playing techniques trial and error. Past era players never get credit deserved for playing that role.

Anyway, I believe in his late 30's Ruth had knee surgery and he had torn knee cartilidge. That injury happened in his Boston days, so he played practically his entire career with a trick knee and had to feel pain. But I've never read of him mentioning it, complaing about it, using it as an excuse, etc. He just accepted it and kept rolling.

The legs were gone but his eyes, reflexes, and power were not. The three Forbes dingers is enough to tell us that. But if you haven't read it, I'll post Jenkinson's break down of 1935, which help show when healthy and able to play, he was still a great hitter.

Wow, Oh aged pretty darn well and that is impressive he raised his SA every year for over ten straight seasons. Do you think he could have been a career .600 slugger in MLB? Have you thought about projecting a MLB slash for him?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Ruth's slugging% is pretty incredible. If we changed all of his triples into strikeouts(136 triples), his career slugging% would still be .641.

Better yet, let's penalize Ruth by removing all of his singles from his best 5 year span, which was from 1920-24(.370/.511/.777). He had 433 singles during that time frame. If we do that, his career AVG drops down to a rather Pedestrian .2905. That penalty drops Ruth's career AVG from 9th best all time down to 366th best all-time, tied with some guys named John Anderson and Frank Baumholtz. However, his slug% drops down to .6382, still the best in MLB history.

Lol I like it.

Let's try this.

Turn all his HR into triples.
Turn all his triples into doubles.
Turn all his doubles into singles.

He ends up tied for #50 all time with Willie Stargell at .528

Or this.

Leave his HR but turn his triples to doubles and doubles to singles. Ends up #9 all time between Manny and JoeD at .583 SA

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Wow, Oh aged pretty darn well and that is impressive he raised his SA every year for over ten straight seasons. Do you think he could have been a career .600 slugger in MLB? Have you thought about projecting a MLB slash for him?

Jim Albright did his own conversions and he only had Oh with, I think, a career .484 slugging and about 520 career home runs (from memory). That slugging percentage seems ho-hum but we must keep in mind that Oh's prime would have been right in the middle of the mid 1960's to mid 1970s (Oh was born in 1940). Back then only the legit sluggers were hiting 40+ HR's in a season.

I'm a big Oh fan but I have to admit I'm starting to wonder if Oh would have been just an decent-to-good major leaguer, nothing special. Japanese position players have been coming to the majors since 2001 and as a group they've been mostly busts. There was Ichiro, a slap hitting Hall of Famer, and Hideki Matsui who was a good major leaguer, bordeline All-Star type of player. I was really diappointed with Matsui's huge drop in HR power. I saw him play in Japan when I was there in 2002. He had big time power. I know that the ballparks in Japan are smaller and per Jim Albright's research HR power drops about 50% from Japan to the majors. But I felt that Matsui would be the one guy who would mash in the majors. He hit 50 HRs in Japan in 2002. Obviously I didn't believe that Matsui would hit 50 HRs in the majors but I believed he could eventually have a 40 HR season once he got used to the pitching in the majors. His first season in the majors he only hit 16 HRs in 695 PA. But the next season he doubled his HR power with 31 HR's in 680 PA. But he never hit 30+ HR's again, though he did hit 28 HRs in 520 PA which would be 36 HR's in 680 PA. So I guess Matsui can conidered a borderline major league slugger at his best?

Other than Matsui no Japanese born power hitter in Japan has come to the majors and was a legit slugger in the majors. This doesn't really bode well for Oh IMO. However, there are two things in Oh's favor. One is that he completely dominated his league in terms of home runs. In career home runs he leads the #2 guy by over 200 home runs and the #3 guy by over 300 home runs. That's a massive gap and to me it strongly implies that Oh was doing something completely different in terms of hitting home runs. This leads to the second point. Was Oh's swing significantly different from the other Japanese players? He didn't seem have the typical Japanese slappy, flat swing. In 110 exhibition games against major league teams Oh did hit 25 HR (338 AB).

[pheasant]

Lol I like it.

Let's try this.

Turn all his HR into triples.
Turn all his triples into doubles.
Turn all his doubles into singles.

He ends up tied for #50 all time with Willie Stargell at .528

Or this.

Leave his HR but turn his triples to doubles and doubles to singles. Ends up #9 all time between Manny and JoeD at .583 SA

Nice touch.

[pheasant]

Slugging championship. Ruth's top 5 slugging seasons vs the top 5 slugging seasons produced by all of players inMLB history not named Ruth.

Note: it is Bonds, Bonds, Bonds, Gehrig, Hornsby Vs Ruth

This will be listed by TB/Ab/Slug%

B Ruth: 388/458/.847, 457/540/.846, 417/540/.772, 399/522/.764, 391/529/.739
Others: 411/476/.863, 303/373/.812, 322/403/,799, 447/584/.765, 381/502/.756

Totals
B Ruth: 2052/2589/.793
Others: 1864/2339/.796

Poor Ruth loses in a squeaker. I thought Ruth was going to squeak it out. I guess I was giving him too much credit. But still: a .793 avg isn't bad at all.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Jim Albright did his own conversions and he only had Oh with, I think, a career .484 slugging and about 520 career home runs (from memory). That slugging percentage seems ho-hum but we must keep in mind that Oh's prime would have been right in the middle of the mid 1960's to mid 1970s (Oh was born in 1940). Back then only the legit sluggers were hiting 40+ HR's in a season.

I'm a big Oh fan but I have to admit I'm starting to wonder if Oh would have been just an decent-to-good major leaguer, nothing special. Japanese position players have been coming to the majors since 2001 and as a group they've been mostly busts. There was Ichiro, a slap hitting Hall of Famer, and Hideki Matsui who was a good major leaguer, bordeline All-Star type of player. I was really diappointed with Matsui's huge drop in HR power. I saw him play in Japan when I was there in 2002. He had big time power. I know that the ballparks in Japan are smaller and per Jim Albright's research HR power drops about 50% from Japan to the majors. But I felt that Matsui would be the one guy who would mash in the majors. He hit 50 HRs in Japan in 2002. Obviously I didn't believe that Matsui would hit 50 HRs in the majors but I believed he could eventually have a 40 HR season once he got used to the pitching in the majors. His first season in the majors he only hit 16 HRs in 695 PA. But the next season he doubled his HR power with 31 HR's in 680 PA. But he never hit 30+ HR's again, though he did hit 28 HRs in 520 PA which would be 36 HR's in 680 PA. So I guess Matsui can conidered a borderline major league slugger at his best?

Other than Matsui no Japanese born power hitter in Japan has come to the majors and was a legit slugger in the majors. This doesn't really bode well for Oh IMO. However, there are two things in Oh's favor. One is that he completely dominated his league in terms of home runs. In career home runs he leads the #2 guy by over 200 home runs and the #3 guy by over 300 home runs. That's a massive gap and to me it strongly implies that Oh was doing something completely different in terms of hitting home runs. This leads to the second point. Was Oh's swing significantly different from the other Japanese players? He didn't seem have the typical Japanee slappy, flat swing. In 110 exhibition games against major league teams Oh did hit 25 HR (338 AB).

Yeah I'm not buying that .484 SA. Sounds more like a single season decline year to me. That .484 would put him in the Tony Clark/Russel Branyon neighnorhood. That's low income housing brotha!

Now sure, a lot would depend what home park he played in, and if he plays in the 60s we'd need to keep perspective, but still. Other hitters from that era are well over .500 and I think he would be among the cream of the crop. Comparing him to mostly small, slap style Japanese players who've come here...I tend to think he woukd be an extreme outlier. History does that sometimes.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Yeah I'm not buying that .484 SA. Sounds more like a single season decline year to me. That .484 would put him in the Tony Clark/Russel Branyon neighnorhood. That's low income housing brotha!

You have a way with words, Randy!

Now sure, a lot would depend what home park he played in, and if he plays in the 60s we'd need to keep perspective, but still. Other hitters from that era are well over .500 and I think he would be among the cream of the crop. Comparing him to mostly small, slap style Japanese players who've come here...I tend to think he woukd be an extreme outlier. History does that sometimes.

Jim has Oh hitting .279/.413/.484, 527 HR, 1903 RBI, 1982 R, 2235 BB, 1318 K

That walk total would be a major record at that time and would still be #2 all time today.

http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/analysisjalbright14.html

[pheasant]

I see Oh putting up Ott's numbers fairly easily. And it seems to me that they both hit with their foot in the bucket.

[elmer]

Babe seriously injured his knee in 1918 before ever
wearing the Yankee uniform.

[elmer]

Babe seriously injured his knee in 1918 before ever
wearing the Yankee uniform.

In 1944, the knee problem he suffered was finally resolved.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Nice find Elmer!

He most certainly would have had an MRI if available, and it would have been handled. Many pitchers would have had better and longer careers too, if technology and knowledge was availabe. We have to accept things as they were, no excuses, but it's definitely interesting and helps paint the entire picture.

[westsidegrounds]

the ballparks in Japan are smaller

Plus they use a livelier ball.

Used to anyway, haven't checked if they still do.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Plus they use a livelier ball.

Used to anyway, haven't checked if they still do.

A few years ago they deaded the ball. But they deadened it too much and scoring collapsed. So they decided to liven the ball but then they went too far which led to a 60 HR season by Wladimir Balentien. Hahaha.