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  • Whats the overall hitter approach over there? Whats the K ratio? Do they attempt a lot of steaks?

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    • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
      Whats the overall hitter approach over there? Whats the K ratio? Do they attempt a lot of steaks?
      There's been some interesting discussion on Japanese hitting mechanics. Some people believe Japanese hitting mechanics are inferior because supposedly it limits a player's ability to hit for BA and power. I am no hitting expert by any means so I'll just post and you decide. Actually, I'd love to hear your take on these links, Randy.

      http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...ach-to-hitting

      http://rhm001.blogspot.com/2014/04/t...f-hitting.html

      https://torque-hitting.com/tag/hitting-torque/

      http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/sp...hass.html?_r=0
      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

      Comment


      • I just read an article that mentioned that Ruth was on his way to challenging the HR record in 1930 until he got injured. Does anybody know what happened to Babe in 1930? Just for fun, I looked up his stats that year. It appears that he got hurt on 7/5/1930 since he only had 2 PA that game in a tight 3-2 loss. He then missed the next 7 days and 5 games.

        Through 73 games, Babe played in all of them and had scored 94 runs, had 32 HRS, 84 RBI with a line of .373/.517/.837. That includes his 0-2 game in which he allegedly was injured.

        I'm curious about the actual extent to how much this injury actually affected Ruth that year. The stats that he had up until the point were incredible. Up until the alleged injury, he was on pace for 198 runs scored, 68 HRS, and 177 RBI over 154 games

        Comment


        • Originally posted by elmer View Post
          Babe seriously injured his knee in 1918 before ever
          wearing the Yankee uniform.
          That article appears to downplay how serious that knee injury was. Obviously being so young at the time, helped the healing.
          In fact, I have some old newspaper articles where Harry Frazee pointed out that knee injury as one of the reasons for shipping off the Babe.
          Harry stated he didn't see a long career for the Bam, not with that knee injured.


          He had to sooth some of Bosox fans, some irate that it was good move for the team.
          Bad knee and oh yes, he was hurting the team. They didn't need a one man team.
          In that season, Babe led "both" leagues in so many offensive stats and was 9-5 pitching.

          What was Harry thinking, that message to some teams that might be interested in picking him up??????????????????
          Kind of like selling a car and telling the potential buyers, it's got a bad transmission.
          Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 09-21-2016, 11:44 AM.

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          • Ruth knocked out.jpg

            On a sunny day on July 5th, 1924, the Yankees were in Griffith Stadium, playing a doubleheader against the Senators. In the fourth inning of the first game, before 24,000 fans, the home team’s Joe Judge swung his bat; the ball sailed just over the right-field line, heading toward the bleachers in foul territory.

            Racing to make the catch, Babe Ruth slammed into a concrete wall and was knocked unconscious. He was already a national phenomenon, already the best-paid major league player there had ever been. As he lay unconscious on the field, the Yankees’ trainer, Doc Woods, rushed to him with a first-aid kit and poured icy water onto his face.
            Ruth was out for five anxiety-producing minutes. The District of Columbia police (led by one Captain Doyle) kept the curious and concerned at bay. When the Babe finally opened his eyes, the Yankees’ manager, Miller Huggins, offered to take him out, but Ruth would not hear of it. Nowadays a player so injured would be taken to a hospital for neurological tests, but this was 1924. Ruth went back into the game, showing a conspicuous limp (he had damaged his left hip) as he recorded two more hits, drawing louder cheers than usual, for his fortitude, as he rounded the bases. He even kept playing through the second game

            Comment


            • Frazee said lots of bad things about Ruth - "...one of the most selfish and inconsiderate men that ever wore a baseball uniform. Had he ... been willing to take orders and work for the good of the team, I would have never dared let him go." etc. etc.

              But back then the major league owners were a pretty close-knit bunch. They probably understood that Frazee's comments were for damage control.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by westsidegrounds View Post
                Frazee said lots of bad things about Ruth - "...one of the most selfish and inconsiderate men that ever wore a baseball uniform. Had he ... been willing to take orders and work for the good of the team, I would have never dared let him go." etc. etc.

                But back then the major league owners were a pretty close-knit bunch. They probably understood that Frazee's comments were for damage control.
                Got that but to say a player your trying to trade or sell off....................may not have a long career because of a serious leg injury.

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                • Frazee's quote about Babe ruth: “There is no getting away from the fact that despite his 29 home runs, the Red Sox finished sixth last year,” Frazee said. “What the Boston fans want, I take it, and what I want because they want it, is a winning team, rather than a one-man team that finishes in sixth place.” Frazee also called Ruth’s home runs “more spectacular than useful.”

                  Comment


                  • Best Babe Ruth biopic ever!

                    By the way, has everybody seen the John Candy version of The Babe Ruth Story?

                    I can't get it to embed, sorry, cause I can't seem to get the url right.

                    But just go to youtube & search

                    Candy Ruth SCTV

                    It's well worth it.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
                      Whats the overall hitter approach over there? Whats the K ratio? Do they attempt a lot of steaks?
                      Oh had only 25 career triples and didn't hit a ton of doubles. When he played, doubles and triples were fairly low for the league. I did an analysis once and estimated that Oh's OPS+ was about 190-195 in his league though it is a little hard to figure because of park effects. In '74 as an example, his OPS+ was 264 if we don't take out pitchers. I think they have a DH league and a non-DH league but I can't remember.

                      http://www.baseball-reference.com/re...d=oh----000sad

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by pheasant View Post
                        I just read an article that mentioned that Ruth was on his way to challenging the HR record in 1930 until he got injured. Does anybody know what happened to Babe in 1930? Just for fun, I looked up his stats that year. It appears that he got hurt on 7/5/1930 since he only had 2 PA that game in a tight 3-2 loss. He then missed the next 7 days and 5 games.

                        Through 73 games, Babe played in all of them and had scored 94 runs, had 32 HRS, 84 RBI with a line of .373/.517/.837. That includes his 0-2 game in which he allegedly was injured.

                        I'm curious about the actual extent to how much this injury actually affected Ruth that year. The stats that he had up until the point were incredible. Up until the alleged injury, he was on pace for 198 runs scored, 68 HRS, and 177 RBI over 154 games
                        1930 was interesting. He just signed that massive (for the times) contract of 80k, it was the first time exhibition gate profits would go to him as well, 50% I believe. Also, he was coming off miserable 1929 where he literally had a nervous breakdown, with Helen and Huggins passing. He was ready for a fresh start and like you pointed out, was killin' it.

                        Jenkinson states that he tore off the fingernail of his ring finger trying to prevent a home run. That had to feel good. He also was as wreckless as ever in the field, making great plays and throws all season long, but shortly after the fingernail incident, he apparently tweaked his back pretty bad, colliding with catchers on more than one occasion. Of course he would play through anything and his numbers were bound to suffer.

                        Here's an excerpt from The Year Babe Ruth Hit 104 Home Runs

                        104.jpg

                        Babe couldn't keep up that homer pace all year, but he never stopped playing great baseball. He missed some time after tearing a fingernail from his left ring finger trying to prevent a home run. With the hand injury limiting his power, Ruth was held to six homers in July. The Yanks were ten games behind the Athletics and now trailed the Senators as well. But as the season swung into August, Babe was still going full throttle. He made another run of outstanding defensive plays early in the month and kept colliding with catchers at home plate. With all this, he wrenched his back, but still wouldn't quit. Ruth recorded eight homers in August, and showed up for work September 1 with a fire still burning in his belly.

                        Babe was battered and sore from his season-long exertions, but the Yanks were playing the Athletics in front of 72,000 ardent supporters. Team trainer Doc Painter told Ruth not to play in the doubleheader, but he wouldn't hear of it. It would make a great story if Babe won the day with amazing deeds, but it didn't happen this time. This is a good tale anyway. How many modern athletes would drag themselves out on display under these circumstances? The man was in severe back pain in a situation where New York trailed Philadelphia by thirteen games with only one month left. Why was he playing? Entering the ninth inning of the first game, Ruth had gone 2 for 4 with two singles. Batting this time with a 3-2 deficit, Ruth watched as Connie Mack specifically called in Lefty Grove to pitch to him. As the two ultimate warriors eyed another, Babe dug in at the plate. This would be another classic confrontation of primal force against brute strength.

                        Facing some of the fastest fastballs ever thrown, Ruth went down swinging. Players in the infield and dugouts declared that they could actually hear the sound of both ball and bat speeding through the air. Babe Ruth had struck out, and the Yankees lost. Some might regard this as a defeat for Ruth, but not those who know best. They see the similarities between these events and those of the last game of the 1926 World Series. Why was he playing? He was playing for pride and because he was not afraid to fail. It was his sense of self, recognizing his role as America's greatest ballplayer. It drove him this day and every other day. No negative thoughts ever deterred him. He never took a backward step on the baseball field. Yes, he was a great natural athlete, but he was a whole lot more than that. He was Babe Ruth.

                        By the end of September, Ruth was feeling much better. He was back at Shibe Park against the same Athletics, where the season had started seemingly ages ago. Babe pounded a hard drive into right center field, and nobody thought much about it. Another home run for Ruth? Who cares? The season is over; the A's have already clinched the pennant. Then bang! The ball hit the exact loudspeaker that had been hit on opening day. The odds of this occurrence are off the charts. It had never happened before, and the Athletics, who thought it would never happen again, hadn't bothered to change the ground rules. Ruth was held to another double that should have been a home run. He wound up the year with forty-nine homers. With either a little luck or a little responsibility on the part of the A's, he would have reached fifty for the fifth time.

                        Undaunted, Babe took the mound two days later on September 28 in Boston to pitch the last game of the season. He hadn't pitched in a Big League game in nine years, and this was a rare opportunity to relive his athletic youth. The chances of defeat and embarrassment were extremely high. But Ruth took the ball and marched onto the mound in front of the same people who remembered him as one of the best left-handed pitchers of that era. And he pitched wonderfully. Entering the eighth inning, he had been practically unhittable. Ruth tired in the ninth, but still managed to hurl a complete game 9-3 victory.


                        ----------------

                        Btw his SA would have been .739 instead of .732 if he had those four total bases he lost out on.
                        Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 09-21-2016, 03:24 PM.

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                        • Awesome post, Sultan. I have heard about Ruth being robbed of his 5th 50 HR season. But I didn't realize that he was having such a monstrous year until he got hurt. I think that contract gave him his last boost of energy. Who knows how he would have finished had he been healthy. It seemed like he was as motivated in 1930 as he was in 1923. Ruth said that his 1923 season was his best. Ironically, that is the year that he set the WAR record that might not ever be broken.

                          Anyway, thanks for the info, Amigo.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by pheasant View Post
                            Awesome post, Sultan. I have heard about Ruth being robbed of his 5th 50 HR season. But I didn't realize that he was having such a monstrous year until he got hurt. I think that contract gave him his last boost of energy. Who knows how he would have finished had he been healthy. It seemed like he was as motivated in 1930 as he was in 1923. Ruth said that his 1923 season was his best. Ironically, that is the year that he set the WAR record that might not ever be broken.

                            Anyway, thanks for the info, Amigo.

                            Posted this one long ago.
                            Not only did Ruth lose another 50 or more home run season.
                            One of those lost home runs was hit off of Lefty Grove, would have given Babe 10 career home runs off of Grove, the most.
                            So he tied with Greenberg and Gehrig with 9 career home runs. Consider this, the Bam never faced Lefty until his (Babe's) 12th season.
                            He also has the most career home runs off of a pretty good right hander, Walter Johnson, 10 career.
                            Researching this guy for decades and he still amazes me.
                            Attached Files

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                              I'd like to invite Matt to post some of his PCA findings/comparisons on Ruth's offense or pitching. Whether good or bad, it would be nice to have it documented.
                              Posted by: SABR Matt

                              Ask and you shall receive.

                              We'll start with some commentary on his hitting, cover his fielding, and then his pitching...and then I'll make a summary statement about Ruth's place in history.

                              To demostrate how truly phenominal Ruth's career was, let's show his offensive record using PCA adjusted Wins and PCA-BA:
                              Code:
                              PlayerID	Yr	PA	Wins	PCA-BA
                              ruthba01	1914	 10	 0.00	0.233
                              ruthba01	1915	103	 1.98	0.349
                              ruthba01	1916	150	 1.46	0.291
                              ruthba01	1917	142	 1.62	0.301
                              ruthba01	1918	380	 9.31	0.382
                              ruthba01	1919	542	16.14	0.415
                              ruthba01	1920	616	22.36	0.455
                              ruthba01	1921	693	23.23	0.438
                              ruthba01	1922	495	11.11	0.369
                              ruthba01	1923	699	20.60	0.413
                              ruthba01	1924	681	21.03	0.421
                              ruthba01	1925	426	 4.53	0.297
                              ruthba01	1926	652	19.46	0.415
                              ruthba01	1927	691	16.29	0.376
                              ruthba01	1928	684	17.82	0.392
                              ruthba01	1929	587	13.86	0.377
                              ruthba01	1930	676	15.65	0.374
                              ruthba01	1931	663	16.48	0.384
                              ruthba01	1932	589	15.36	0.392
                              ruthba01	1933	575	 8.37	0.321
                              ruthba01	1934	471	 7.09	0.324
                              ruthba01	1935	 92	 0.77	0.283
                              His career Offensive PCA-BA of .385 is best in baseball history among players with at least 2500 PA. Just try to imagine what people would say about a player who had a .385 career batting average (!)...when you put offensive production on the scale of batting average it really helps put things into perspective. Note that Ruth bests Ted Williams by 4 points and the third place hitter (in terms of career production rate, that's Barry Bonds) by SIXTEEN points.

                              6 Seasons Over .400
                              8 More Seasons Over .350
                              Aside from when he was injured or a pitcher, he NEVER finished below .300 (and bear in mind, the adjusted wins and PCA-BA are normalized to account for the standard deviation of performance which during Ruth's time was rather large).

                              Check this out...here are the the top 25 seasons in major league history where the player recorded at least 500 PA in offensive PCA-BA...count the times Ruth appears:
                              Code:
                              PlayerID	Yr	PA	Wins	PCA-BA
                              [B]Babe Ruth	1920	616	22.36	0.455[/B]
                              R. Henderson	1990	594	20.74	0.446
                              Barry Bonds	2004	617	21.55	0.446
                              Barry Bonds	2002	612	20.72	0.44
                              [B]Babe Ruth	1921	693	23.23	0.438[/B]
                              Ty Cobb 	1910	590	19.09	0.431
                              George Brett	1980	515	16.68	0.431
                              Honus Wagner	1908	641	20.55	0.429
                              Ty Cobb 	1917	669	21.27	0.427
                              Nap Lajoie	1901	582	17.89	0.421
                              [B]Babe Ruth	1924	681	21.03	0.421[/B]
                              Honus Wagner	1904	558	17.18	0.421
                              Mickey Mantle	1956	652	19.94	0.42
                              Ted Williams	1957	546	16.72	0.42
                              Mickey Mantle	1962	502	15.28	0.419
                              Mickey Mantle	1957	623	18.81	0.417
                              Jim Thome	2002	613	18.51	0.417
                              Ted Williams	1941	606	18.25	0.417
                              [B]Babe Ruth	1919	542	16.14	0.415
                              Base Ruth	1926	652	19.46	0.415[/B]
                              Ted Williams	1948	638	19.04	0.415
                              Jason Giambi	2001	671	19.88	0.414
                              Barry Bonds	2001	664	19.61	0.413
                              [B]Babe Ruth	1923	699	20.6	0.413[/B]
                              Nap Lajoie	1904	594	17.41	0.412
                              Jason Giambi	2000	664	19.34	0.411
                              Out of the top 25 hitting seasons of all time by PCA, six of them were Babe Ruth.

                              When you break his marvelous career into the three components that make up the GI method, (career wins or LONGEVITY, wins prorated to a standard career length or EFFICIENCY, and performance above the 90th percentile along with a career half-life projection, which when combined together form a DOMINANCE term), You get a good picture of how Ruth compares to the other great offensive players.

                              In terms of career offensive wins, here are the top five:
                              Code:
                              First	Last    	LONGEVITY	Ps
                              Ty	Cobb    	265.2   	CF
                              Babe	Ruth    	264.52  	RF
                              Barry	Bonds   	258.57  	LF
                              Ted	Williams	238.52  	LF
                              Rickey	Henderson	237.42  	LF
                              Cobb ekes out an extremely slim victory over Ruth here but does so in about 2400 extra plate appearances.

                              Other than Barry Bonds, no one else comes even close to Ruth.

                              Here's are the top five most efficiency offensive players of all time:
                              Code:
                              First	Last    	EFFICIENCY	Ps
                              Babe	Ruth    	260.61  	RF
                              Barry	Bonds   	248.54  	LF
                              Ty	Cobb    	245.74  	CF
                              Ted	Williams	239.84  	LF
                              Rickey	Henderson	216.23  	LF
                              Neat...same five players, but now Ruth dominates the field being the only player with a relatively short career in this grouping (even Ted Williams had more PA despite having to fight in two different wars).

                              When we look at how much the best players dominated over their field, Ruth again lands squarely on top:
                              Code:
                              First	Last    	MASTERY 	Ps
                              Babe	Ruth    	245.05  	RF
                              Ted	Williams	221.95  	LF
                              Barry	Bonds   	216.34  	LF
                              Ty	Cobb    	201.09  	CF
                              Mickey	Mantle  	179.45  	CF
                              The new player in this list is the Mick...and this makes sense given his impressive string of league-leads in PCA wins created. But notice how big the drop-off is between Ruth and the next three...and again to the third tier oif players (led by Mantle). No one dominated the game anything like Ruth offensively.

                              His offensive rating, when you add those three fields together reflects this:
                              Code:
                              First	Last    	TOTAL	Ps
                              Babe	Ruth    	770.18	RF
                              Barry	Bonds   	723.45	LF
                              Ty	Cobb    	712.03	CF
                              Ted	Williams	700.31	LF
                              Rickey	Henderson	627.82	LF
                              Ruth blows away the field, fellas. This will be important later when I talk about defense in the next post.
                              With the available data, though, I will stick to my belief that Ruth is the best hitter of all time.

                              ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              Thanks to Matt for the data. Here's a line-chart to give a different visual perspective of offensive PCA-BA and how these players performed throughout their careers.

                              Bonds ('86-'04), Ruth ('18-'35), Mays ('51-'73; no '53 of course), Williams ('39-'60; no '43-'45, and no '52 - only 12 PA)

                              PCABAchart.jpg

                              Comment


                              • Thanks for sharing Sabr Matt's work. He used standard deviations, which is great. I am sure that he was a great fan of Michael Schell, just like I am, along with BigRon and Floyd are.

                                Anyway, there are couple of hidden gems in there. Using this method, Cobb shines quite brightly. He leads in career wins, although he needed 2400 more PA than Ruth to claim that trophy. It will depend on whether or not a person is a cumulative fan vs a peak fan. But this study gives Cobb a good argument for being the best ever, especially when favoriting his positional importance at CF. Secondly, Mantle is way up on the list. Is way higher than most people have him. I believe I had him at exactly 6th in my rankings. And thirdly, notice how clean-Bonds line in the very bottom chart holds its own pretty well. This boosts him way up there. And here is the kicker: players in 1990s we're taking steroids to fatten up the actual length of the standard deviations. If you take steroids out of the mix, then Bonds probably dominates that chart. As a matter of fact, the fact that he was clean(up through 1998) and still scoring this high(solidly above Mays) despite throwing all of those juicers into the mix gives him a really strong case for best ever.

                                Of course, I would draft Wagner first. I have already posted my standings.

                                Anyway, another great post, Sultan.

                                Comment

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