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  • Originally posted by sturg1dj View Post
    Random Babe Ruth question:

    While looking at old New York Times and Boston Globe articles around the time of his sale to the Yankees it is reported multiple times that he gives the Red Sox a salary ultimatum and actually says he is ready to retire.

    Now obviously this was just Ruth trying to gain leverage over a salary dispute as evidenced in later Globe articles that report that Ruth was furious at first that he was sold.

    My question is why is the main story that he was sold because Frazee needed money for a broadway musical when it seems more that Ruth made a salary ultimatum and Frazee called his bluff?
    "I would have preferred to take players in exchange for Ruth, but no club could have given me the equivalent in men without wrecking itself, and so the deal had to be made on a cash basis." Harry Frazee (emphasis added)

    Frazee did very well out of the Ruth sale, by the way. Would he have made the same amount of money from ticket sales if Ruth had remained with the Red Sox? Maybe - but it would have taken years. Owning a baseball club, even a successful one like the Cards or Yankees, was not a high-profit business until TV revenues came along.

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    • Originally posted by westsidegrounds View Post
      "I would have preferred to take players in exchange for Ruth, but no club could have given me the equivalent in men without wrecking itself, and so the deal had to be made on a cash basis." Harry Frazee (emphasis added)

      Frazee did very well out of the Ruth sale, by the way. Would he have made the same amount of money from ticket sales if Ruth had remained with the Red Sox? Maybe - but it would have taken years. Owning a baseball club, even a successful one like the Cards or Yankees, was not a high-profit business until TV revenues came along.
      I doubt it would take that long to cash in on Ruth had he stayed in Boston. I think there was no way even in Boston that he stayed on the mound or even both mound and every day player, to demanding. Taking to the outfield, every day player would have created more interest in seeing him every day.

      Wasn't just Ruth, by 1922, Mays, Leonard, Schang, Sam Jones, Hooper, Scott were gone, he dismantled the whole team. From 1922 to 1932 the best they could do finish last 8 times, one 6th and one 7th. Every so often it comes up, would Ruth have remained a pitcher as a Bosox , no way not with that big bat. And also no way would he split time, asking too much. He hadd to be in the game everyday as a position player.
      No getting around it, Harry made the biggest blunder in the game, ever.

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      • I just like the bolded part especially. Frazee wasn't an admirer of the Babe, on a personal level anyhow it seems, but he can't help speaking pretty much the truth here.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by westsidegrounds View Post
          I just like the bolded part especially. Frazee wasn't an admirer of the Babe, on a personal level anyhow it seems, but he can't help speaking pretty much the truth here.
          My answer to what Harry said, the smart move was to just keep Babe, no trade and no selling him. Obvious from all that I have read, it was more about money than it was about not liking Babe. Can't say for sure what was in Harry's mind but I think he knew it was not a good thing to do for the club, it was all business he need the cash.

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          • Originally posted by sturg1dj View Post
            Random Babe Ruth question:

            While looking at old New York Times and Boston Globe articles around the time of his sale to the Yankees it is reported multiple times that he gives the Red Sox a salary ultimatum and actually says he is ready to retire.

            Now obviously this was just Ruth trying to gain leverage over a salary dispute as evidenced in later Globe articles that report that Ruth was furious at first that he was sold.

            My question is why is the main story that he was sold because Frazee needed money for a broadway musical when it seems more that Ruth made a salary ultimatum and Frazee called his bluff?
            Well, Frazee DID need money. He still owed former Sox owner Lannin money, and he wanted to purchase a theater and also finance a play called My Fair Lady. Make no mistake, Frazee's true love was theater, not baseball. Early in 1918 there was talk of the Yanks buying Ruth and Frazee made public comments suggesting he'd have to be crazy to let go of Babe.

            On the Ruth side of things, yes, he wanted his salary doubled to 20k. He was being used like a rented mule and knew his value. Credit him for understanding that at an early age. It's something that stayed with him his entire career.

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            • Ty Cobb had been at $20,000 since 1915.

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              • ...

                Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948
                So 20k was more than reasonable to ask for.
                It was certainly "in the ballpark"!

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                • The Babe was so close in 1926.

                  Entering the last day of the 1926 season, Ruth led Manush .3724 to .3721 in AVG. However, on the last day of the season, which was 9/26/1926, Ruth only got 1 AB in the doubleheader to remain at .372. However, Manush went 6 for 9 in his doubleheader to win the battle title and deny Ruth his only Triple Crown.

                  Manush on the road that year had a line of .352/.388/.543. Ruth's road line was .378/.515/.752.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by pheasant View Post
                    The Babe was so close in 1926.

                    Entering the last day of the 1926 season, Ruth led Manush .3724 to .3721 in AVG. However, on the last day of the season, which was 9/26/1926, Ruth only got 1 AB in the doubleheader to remain at .372. However, Manush went 6 for 9 in his doubleheader to win the battle title and deny Ruth his only Triple Crown.

                    Manush on the road that year had a line of .352/.388/.543. Ruth's road line was .378/.515/.752.
                    Babe did have one at bat in that doubleheader played on the 26th Ben Paschal was in left field. Babe started the game but an injury to his leg the day before put him out of the game, only one plate appearance.
                    Tough schedule to finish the 1926 season. Doubleheader on Sept. 25 and 26, four games in two days.
                    Strong finish, DH Sept.25, 1926 he was 5 for 7 in both games, three homers over those two games. Box score at Baseball Reference in error. They showed no homers in game one on the 25th, news archive write up the day later shows one home run in the first game.

                    A clip from the NY Times. This love hate relation with the Card fans in the bleachers continued in the WS with the Cards. Card fans were throwing bottles his way when in left field, after he hit two home runs in that WS game. When he hit the third home, in his return to left field the bleacher section in left field gave him a standing ovation.
                    The Bam had a way with the people, even away from home.
                    Attached Files

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                    • How bout this.

                      If you decided to calculate Ruth's career SA using PA instead of AB, he'd still be #29 all-time at .5453, sandwiched between Delgado and Piazza.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
                        How bout this.

                        If you decided to calculate Ruth's career SA using PA instead of AB, he'd still be #29 all-time at .5453, sandwiched between Delgado and Piazza.
                        I think that you are being a little harsh on the Babe, like you normally are. You must hate the Babe!

                        You included Ruth's Dead Ball stats and the years he pitched, which is unfairly dragging down his stats.

                        If we look at his Live Ball stats from 1920+ and do the same thing, then he ends up at .5555, which has him edging out Frank Thomas and Hank Aaron.

                        Comment


                        • Here are the basic numbers for Babe Ruth versus Walter Johnson and Lefty Grove:

                          Versus Johnson-137 ABs, 43 Hits, 92 Total Bases, 10 HRs, 24, BBs, 23 Ks, .313 BA, .680 Slugging Percentage

                          Versus Grove-135 ABs, 42 Hits, 71 Total Bases, 9 HRs, 14 BBs, 44 Ks, .311 BA, .526 Slugging Percentage

                          --Bill Jenkinson

                          Game by game spreadsheet to come

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
                            Here are the basic numbers for Babe Ruth versus Walter Johnson and Lefty Grove:

                            Versus Johnson-137 ABs, 43 Hits, 92 Total Bases, 10 HRs, 24, BBs, 23 Ks, .313 BA, .680 Slugging Percentage

                            Versus Grove-135 ABs, 42 Hits, 71 Total Bases, 9 HRs, 14 BBs, 44 Ks, .311 BA, .526 Slugging Percentage

                            --Bill Jenkinson

                            Game by game spreadsheet to come
                            I've posted similar before Randy, sure you've seen them.
                            My intention to show what Babe did against a great righty and lefty, two of the best, Grove for sure in that era.
                            Also the fact that the best in career homers against Grove, Ruth, Gehrig and Greenberg all with 9 career home runs.

                            To be considered, the fact that at Shibe in 1930 Babe hit a drive that cleared the wall in deep RCF and struck speaker supports, umps sent him back to second base, only a double, the pitcher Lefty Grove. He could have had the most career homers with 10 off of Grove. Also, he never face Grove until he was in the game for 12 years.

                            That was the second time in 1930 he lost a homer at Shibe in the same way, the same year 1930, finished with 49. Could have given him his 5th season with 50 or more, the most. The numbers, 11 seasons with 40 or more, Aaron and Bonds combined 16 seasons 40 or more.

                            The clincher, Ruth never hit 40 or more until his 7th season, his career one quarter over.
                            Talk all they want about different time period played in, he was on another planet, still is.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
                              I've posted similar before Randy, sure you've seen them.
                              My intention to show what Babe did against a great righty and lefty, two of the best, Grove for sure in that era.
                              Also the fact that the best in career homers against Grove, Ruth, Gehrig and Greenberg all with 9 career home runs.

                              To be considered, the fact that at Shibe in 1930 Babe hit a drive that cleared the wall in deep RCF and struck speaker supports, umps sent him back to second base, only a double, the pitcher Lefty Grove. He could have had the most career homers with 10 off of Grove. Also, he never face Grove until he was in the game for 12 years.

                              That was the second time in 1930 he lost a homer at Shibe in the same way, the same year 1930, finished with 49. Could have given him his 5th season with 50 or more, the most. The numbers, 11 seasons with 40 or more, Aaron and Bonds combined 16 seasons 40 or more.

                              The clincher, Ruth never hit 40 or more until his 7th season, his career one quarter over.
                              Talk all they want about different time period played in, he was on another planet, still is.
                              Re: ". . . he was on another planet, still is." - You are correct, Sir!

                              In Father Gabe’s Costa's words, “Every now and then there’s a blip in nature, Ruth was a blip.”

                              Also from Father Costa: "If the formula does not come out with Babe as the best, then the formula is wrong"
                              ". . . the Ruth, the whole Ruth and nothing but the Ruth . . ."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Badge714 View Post
                                Re: ". . . he was on another planet, still is." - You are correct, Sir!

                                In Father Gabe’s Costa's words, “Every now and then there’s a blip in nature, Ruth was a blip.”

                                Also from Father Costa: "If the formula does not come out with Babe as the best, then the formula is wrong"
                                I present this side of Babe at times to show his greatness, natural ability..................put all the big numbers aside. The numbers we have seen over and over again.
                                This side the natural born talent, leaves St. Mary's around February in 1914 and at the end of the season in the International League he is among the best pitchers that season. Showing some signs of power, a pitcher with 11 triples.

                                W-L 22-9, ERA 2.39. Only one pitcher with a better WL percentage Carl Mays .750, Ruth .710. High walks 101 but among the best in H/9 Inn.
                                The point, look at him, first time in his life in real organized baseball. No high school, college ball and no real training. Playing almost all his games within the walls of Saint Mary's. There was a very small number of games played against some teams away from Saint Mary's.
                                He was the real natural.
                                Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 03-07-2017, 03:09 PM.

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