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  • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    Wow, Bill, I never thought you of all people would would make such overstated assertions. One of the most famous poeple who ever lived? Seriously? As for the most photographed I believe Muhammad Ali holds that title.

    Not to debate this one again, Ali may have been the most photographed, how do we ever know. Also, performed and lives in our time, comparing him to an athlete who last performed 77 years ago, passed away 64 years ago.

    I sure won't turn this into one of the who is the most popular, well known, obviously a great athlete who performed in most of our time and "is still alive" would be known to more.
    One thing, one test Babe Ruth has passed, like no other athlete has at this time, the test of time. Will Ali, Jordan or any recent athletes be spoken of as much 60 or 70 years after they leave, possible but what I say is, we have no way to tell at this time. I would lean more to Ali, jordan no match for Ali.

    There is a Babe Ruth page on Facebook where I have posted a couple of hundred Babe pictures and news articles. I was more than surprised at how many in other countries knew of him. I have seen comments from at least 20 or more countries in many different regions of the world. The surprise, many from teenage boys and a bigger surprise girls who have commented on the pics and articles. I get a great number in foreign languages, some I take to Google Translator to understand.

    At times I will go to the persons Facebook page and take a look, young kids............favorite athletes..Jordan, Venus Williams, Michael Phelps........Babe Ruth, from way back.

    Anyone can check that page out at Facebook and if one goes back over the last couple of months you will see comments from all over the world.

    Again, not an Ali or Babe debate, only saying from one who knows a good deal about Babe, I was really surprised how universal he is, after all thase years.

    Comment


    • I stand by my statement. Babe was one of the most famous people who ever lived. And easily one of the most photographed. And I DID say, "One of". I was not conferring the title on anyone.

      But he was both of these and I don't think there is anything particularly controversial about it. And he lived way before the level of mass communications, i. e. TV, computers, email, Facebook, etc.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bill Burgess View Post
        I stand by my statement. Babe was one of the most famous people who ever lived. And easily one of the most photographed. And I DID say, "One of". I was not conferring the title on anyone.

        But he was both of these and I don't think there is anything particularly controversial about it. And he lived way before the level of mass communications, i. e. TV, computers, email, Facebook, etc.
        Really Bill? Is Ruth as "famous" as Jesus Christ, Issac Newton, Julius Caesar, Plato, Socrates, Albert Einstein. Joan of Arc, William Shakespeare, Johan Gutenberg, Christopher Columbus, Leonardo Da Vinci, etc. I can go on and on. Ruth was a baseball player, nothing more. Yes, he was very famous in his time but there were other people far more famous and influential internationally than Ruth. Shoot, Charles Lindbergh dwarfed Ruth in fame and influence.
        Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 01-31-2012, 02:59 PM.
        Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

        Comment


        • You make good points, but I stand by my statement. You are listing some people whose influence is vastly greater, like Gutenberg. Inventing the printing press made books vastly more accessable and cheaper, but that does not make Gutenberg very famous. Same thing with Newton. Plato and Socrates do not have lots of books written about them.

          In any listing of famous people, Babe Ruth would not be out of place. It might come down to dueling definitions. Mind you, Adam, I am not pushing him as influential. Or important. Just well-known. Rightly or wrongly.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bill Burgess View Post
            I stand by my statement. Babe was one of the most famous people who ever lived.
            Ummm...you're really having to defend that statement? Perhaps next you can defend that rain is moist or that the world is round? Geez..just when I was going to give this site a chance again.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
              It had to the different strategy in those times. They would have to be just as scared of Babe as they were of Bonds, or anyone, the IBB was not much part of the game.
              Definitely. They just didn't label and acknowledge the procedure like we do today, given the size of the strike zone back then.

              The vast majority of hitters faced pitchers "pitching to contact" or throwing strikes with not much emphasis on mixing speeds, disrupting the hitters timing, and hitting the corners. They were pacing themselves for when the situation called for more energy/focus.
              When runners were in scoring position, the pitcher would concentrate more on working the corners and mixing up sequences. A hitter like Ruth was treated as if runners were in scoring position at all times, considering the damage he could do with one swing. And when they actually were in scoring position, the pitchers went even further with it.
              The unintentional intentional walk was commonplace. Ruth is easily the best "bad ball" hitter of all time. You can say he should have walked more, but he likely wanted to earn his salary and knew what was expected from fans. In the end, its hard to argue with the numbers.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                As for the most photographed I believe Muhammad Ali holds that title.
                Hard to say. Ali was amazing but we can look at a few things:

                Ruth was playing the more popular sport in their respective time periods. Between pre-season, exhibitions, regular season, playoffs, barnstorming, he easily played over 200 games per season, in who knows how many difference cities. In MLB cities he was huge but in cities west of St. Louis, it was literally a reason for the town to stop. Ruth was coming. Ali fought about 60 times in his career.

                The Yankees alone had about 8 writers traveling with the team, to say nothing of the opposing teams reporters and any others interested. Remember, Ruth was no longer just for the sports section. His was a story of human interest as well.

                Ali was a great quote when the cameras were on, but how interesting was he really? In between games and in the offseason, Ruth was seemingly everywhere doing everything. Leading up to a fight, during a fight, and right after the fight, I imagine Ali was photographed an awful lot but as much as Ruth overall? Doubtful.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
                  Geez..just when I was going to give this site a chance again.
                  Forget about website loyalty. How about returning just to bond with a certain, few, old friends who value you highly? It's about friends, not websites.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bill Burgess View Post
                    Forget about website loyalty. How about returning just to bond with a certain, few, old friends who value you highly? It's about friends, not websites.
                    Hey Bill, hope you're doing well and everyone else as well. We had some good debates and discussions, huh.

                    Just happened to pop in and first post I saw was you defending that statement. Made me cringe lol. Stay in touch

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
                      Hard to say. Ali was amazing but we can look at a few things:

                      Ruth was playing the more popular sport in their respective time periods. Between pre-season, exhibitions, regular season, playoffs, barnstorming, he easily played over 200 games per season, in who knows how many difference cities. In MLB cities he was huge but in cities west of St. Louis, it was literally a reason for the town to stop. Ruth was coming. Ali fought about 60 times in his career.

                      The Yankees alone had about 8 writers traveling with the team, to say nothing of the opposing teams reporters and any others interested. Remember, Ruth was no longer just for the sports section. His was a story of human interest as well.

                      Ali was a great quote when the cameras were on, but how interesting was he really? In between games and in the offseason, Ruth was seemingly everywhere doing everything. Leading up to a fight, during a fight, and right after the fight, I imagine Ali was photographed an awful lot but as much as Ruth overall? Doubtful.
                      Ya know Randy there is a huge world out that goes well beyond Babe Ruth. If you really believe that Babe Ruth is one of the famous people ever then I really have nothing else to say. That is Muhammad Ali is far more famous than Babe Ruth ever was is plainly obvious too all except the most hardcore Babe Ruth fanatics. Do you really believe that Ali was only photographed during the time of his fights? Ali first became famous at age 18 when he won a boxing gold medal at the 1960 Olympic games. He then went on to become the Heavyweight champion at age 22 in a huge upset. He called his fight. He bragged that he would be Liston. People thought he was crazy. At that time he was just another famous athlete. Then he joined the Nation of Islam in 1964 and that changed everything. Ali ceased being just a athlete and become a social and political figure. He challenged the status quo of society at that time, challenged the white power structure. He refused induction into the US Army and promptly was arrested and stripped of his title. He was convicted and given a 5-year prison sentence. He lost three prime years of his career. He faced imprisonment yest stood his ground. It's obvious that he US government didn't want the Heavyweight champion speaking against the Vietnam War so they changed his draft status. He became the most beloved and hated man in America at the same time. Wherever he went the press was their with their camera and mikes. He spoke constantly against the racism in American and against the Vietnam War. As for being most interesting what exactly did Ruth do outside of baseball that was remotely interesting compared to what Ali did? Even today at age 70 Ali, frail, suffering from Alzheimer's disease, and can hardly speek, is still revered all over the world, some 31 years after his last fight. He can go to any African or Muslim nation and be instantly recognized and be mobbed by fans.
                      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
                        Hey Bill, hope you're doing well and everyone else as well. We had some good debates and discussions, huh.

                        Just happened to pop in and first post I saw was you defending that statement. Made me cringe lol. Stay in touch
                        So many others have left. But your leaving left the biggest hole. You were documenting important things. One should finish what they start.
                        I am still finishing my sports writers project. Not that anyone finds it important. But you need to finish your Babe work here. It's important. Joe is carrying on as best he can, but its like Stonewall Jackson without Robert E. Lee. This thread needs you. The work needs you. I need you. I NEED YOU!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                          Ya know Randy there is a huge world out that goes well beyond Babe Ruth. If you really believe that Babe Ruth is one of the famous people ever then I really have nothing else to say. That is Muhammad Ali is far more famous than Babe Ruth ever was is plainly obvious too all except the most hardcore Babe Ruth fanatics. Do you really believe that Ali was only photographed during the time of his fights? Ali first became famous at age 18 when he won a boxing gold medal at the 1960 Olympic games. He then went on to become the Heavyweight champion at age 22 in a huge upset. He called his fight. He bragged that he would be Liston. People thought he was crazy. At that time he was just another famous athlete. Then he joined the Nation of Islam in 1964 and that changed everything. Ali ceased being just a athlete and become a social and political figure. He challenged the status quo of society at that time, challenged the white power structure. He refused induction into the US Army and promptly was arrested and stripped of his title. He was convicted and given a 5-year prison sentence. He lost three prime years of his career. He faced imprisonment yest stood his ground. It's obvious that he US government didn't want the Heavyweight champion speaking against the Vietnam War so they changed his draft status. He became the most beloved and hated man in America at the same time. Wherever he went the press was their with their camera and mikes. He spoke constantly against the racism in American and against the Vietnam War. As for being most interesting what exactly did Ruth do outside of baseball that was remotely interesting compared to what Ali did? Even today at age 70 Ali, frail, suffering from Alzheimer's disease, and can hardly speek, is still revered all over the world, some 31 years after his last fight. He can go to any African or Muslim nation and be instantly recognized and be mobbed by fans.
                          So what? Ali was very famous. In some ways, Ali was more famous than Babe Ruth. But Ali had advantages. Boxing is more famous and established world-wide. Baseball is not. Ali had TV and the world-wide TV network to spread his name. Babe couldn't dream of that kind of mass communications.

                          Ali had racial discrimination to overcome, Babe did not. Ali had the US draft board ordering him to make war on yellow people who had never wronged him. Babe Ruth did not. Babe was ordered to make war on the Kaiser's Germany and got a family deferment because he was the family breadwinner.

                          This discussion is not fair. It is also not proving anything. Babe Ruth and Muhammad Ali were extremely famous. Babe was put into around 25 NYC newspapers on many, many days when there was no good reason to insert his name into the papers. The papers knew that if they did that, the paper would sell that day. Muhammad never achieved that level of intense fame. Babe SHOULDN'T have, but the media used him for its own interests.

                          This discussion is a little bit crazy.
                          Last edited by Bill Burgess; 02-01-2012, 12:43 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Randy. See what I'm up against? Still think I don't need you to have my back?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bill Burgess View Post
                              So what? Ali was very famous. In some ways, Ali was more famous than Babe Ruth. But Ali had advantages. Boxing is more famous and established world-wide. Baseball is not. Ali had TV and the world-wide TV network to spread his name. Babe couldn't dream of that kind of mass communications.

                              Ali had racial discrimination to overcome, Babe did not. Ali had the US draft board ordering him to make war on yellow people who had never wronged him. Babe Ruth did not. Babe was ordered to make war on the Kaiser's Germany and got a family deferment because he was the family breadwinner.

                              This discussion is not fair. It is also not proving anything. Babe Ruth and Muhammad Ali were extremely famous. Babe was put into around 25 NYC newspapers on many, many days when there was no good reason to insert his name into the papers. The papers knew that if they did that, the paper would sell that day. Muhammad never achieved that level of intense fame. Babe SHOULDN'T have, but the media used him for its own interests.

                              This discussion is a little bit crazy.
                              Bill, this "discussion" was started when I commented on your Babe Ruth is famous assertion. I was completely surprised, that you, of all people, would say such a thing.
                              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                                Ya know Randy there is a huge world out that goes well beyond Babe Ruth. If you really believe that Babe Ruth is one of the famous people ever then I really have nothing else to say. That is Muhammad Ali is far more famous than Babe Ruth ever was is plainly obvious too all except the most hardcore Babe Ruth fanatics. Do you really believe that Ali was only photographed during the time of his fights? Ali first became famous at age 18 when he won a boxing gold medal at the 1960 Olympic games. He then went on to become the Heavyweight champion at age 22 in a huge upset. He called his fight. He bragged that he would be Liston. People thought he was crazy. At that time he was just another famous athlete. Then he joined the Nation of Islam in 1964 and that changed everything. Ali ceased being just a athlete and become a social and political figure. He challenged the status quo of society at that time, challenged the white power structure. He refused induction into the US Army and promptly was arrested and stripped of his title. He was convicted and given a 5-year prison sentence. He lost three prime years of his career. He faced imprisonment yest stood his ground. It's obvious that he US government didn't want the Heavyweight champion speaking against the Vietnam War so they changed his draft status. He became the most beloved and hated man in America at the same time. Wherever he went the press was their with their camera and mikes. He spoke constantly against the racism in American and against the Vietnam War. As for being most interesting what exactly did Ruth do outside of baseball that was remotely interesting compared to what Ali did? Even today at age 70 Ali, frail, suffering from Alzheimer's disease, and can hardly speek, is still revered all over the world, some 31 years after his last fight. He can go to any African or Muslim nation and be instantly recognized and be mobbed by fans.
                                Your speaking of a man that many of us saw perform, appear on TV and is still alive and comparing him to a man born in the late 1800s and died 64 years ago.

                                Add to that, yes it's true Ali was involved in social issues but as strictly athletes, Ruth was bigger in his sport, changed the game. And will Ali be spoken of after he's gone over half a century. Maybe he will but we know Ruth already passed that test.

                                Speaking of predictions in January of 1921 Ruth said my slogan for 1921 will be 60 or more home runs. He hit 59 that year and fan interferance in that season cost him a home run. Not that easy of a prediction.
                                Once again, will Ali as an athlete be spoken of as much as Ruth after being gone for many decades.

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