*Babe Ruth Thread*

[csh19792001]

Williams could very well be the best hitter ever.

Same goes for Ty Cobb.

[csh19792001]

I was under the impression that when the 1948 season opened only the Dodgers and Indians had black players on their rosters.

You're probably right. You know more about that time period than anyone else I know of here, and those integration posts were dug up from years ago.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Some AL fielding stats for pitchers in the years Ruth was a pitcher only. He had 7 errors over those three years.

[pheasant]

I.e, Ruth smashed 3 doubles in one game in the Dead Ball era against a pitcher that threw in the high 90s with pinpoint control? And he did this with a 42 ounce bat? Wow! Granted, Walter only threw one pitch. But it was arguably the best pitch ever. That's pretty impressive. I've read that Ruth hit some severely scuffed up balls that broke two feet on the way to the plate for some long doubles to right center as well. I want to call him stupid for not using a 32 inch whip bat. He could have generated so much more speed with a bat like that. But maybe he needed that heavier bat to put one out of parks back then with 450-487 ft centerfields. He still did ok, so maybe I'll bite my tongue.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

You're probably right. You know more about that time period than anyone else I know of here, and those integration posts were dug up from years ago.

Jackie was the very first, made a bigger and earlier debut than Larry Doby in the AL. But they both played in some of the same cities, NY, Philly, Chicago, Boston and St. Louis. I'm sure Jackie probably got the most heat as a black, he was the very first, Larry came in mid season. But I'm sure it wasn't all fun for Larry in the AL.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I.e, Ruth smashed 3 doubles in one game in the Dead Ball era against a pitcher that threw in the high 90s with pinpoint control? And he did this with a 42 ounce bat? Wow! Granted, Walter only threw one pitch. But it was arguably the best pitch ever. That's pretty impressive. I've read that Ruth hit some severely scuffed up balls that broke two feet on the way to the plate for some long doubles to right center as well. I want to call him stupid for not using a 32 inch whip bat. He could have generated so much more speed with a bat like that. But maybe he needed that heavier bat to put one out of parks back then with 450-487 ft centerfields. He still did ok, so maybe I'll bite my tongue.

Only his third double was hit off of Johnson, who came in relief in the 9th inning. One more note Johnson batting in the
9th inning, his sac fly was the winning run, Walter could swing the bat..

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Same goes for Ty Cobb.

Ty is always in the mix when it's about greatest hitters.

[csh19792001]

We all heard the story about the dream trade, Dimaggio going to Fenway and Ted going to Yankee Stadium. Ted did hit for .300+ there but in his own words, he did not like hitting a Yankee Stadium. If I recall, did not like all the smoke, the high stands and the shadows. Also felt like if he did play there, they would just pitch him away, not pull the ball and would issue him many walks, just get him out of the way and set the next batter for a possible DP.

Ted's own feelings about Yankee Stadium

Also, Ted said in his memoirs:
"For the 11 years Stengel managed the Yankees Ballclub, there was a rule there that if Williams beats us in the seventh, eighth, or ninth innings, that player was fined. So, you see, I didn't get much to hit there, although that's no excuse on my part."

"I hit .309 at Yankee Stadium! Now, back home at Fenway, I hit .365 against Yankee pitching...against basically the same pitchers. It's true that I had to hit it 400 feet at Fenway and about 310 at Yankee Stadium, but goddamn it, I had a hard time because I never got a good ball to hit."

[pheasant]

Same goes for Ty Cobb.

Ty Cobb to me would beat even Ruth if they both played in the Dead Ball era. Cobb's bunting, base stealing, and incredible place hitting were incredibly valuable tools during the Dead Ball era. And I believe only Ruth and Maybe a healthy non-alcoholic Mantle would have the chance to hang with Cobb while playing in the Dead Ball era. Ruth and Mantle are the only ones that could have homered 25+ times a year in those big ballparks with deadened ball. But 25 to even 35 HRs is not enough to offset a guy hitting .400 with 45 doubles and 15 triples and 60 steals during his prime. However, the Live Ball era changed everything and took the science out of the game. That change hurt Cobb immensely. But Cobb was still really good in the Live Ball era. But he was no longer untouchable. I also believe that Ted Williams would have suffered in the Dead Ball era quite a bit. He didn't have the power of a Ruth or Mantle. But he may have been like a Joe Jackson, which isn't so bad.

[csh19792001]

If your speaking of the Polo Grounds and home runs only, I think Hank hit fairly well there, not the greatest.
I think Willie did hit the long ball pretty good, of course it was his home park.
Anyone having any numbers, total home runs and more telling AB/HR ratio at the Polo.

Hank's line at The Polo Grounds was .353/.403/.603 one HR every 16 AB's

Mays: .318/.387/.601 one HR every 15 AB's.

(Read: Both guys killed it at the Horseshoe Shaped Park in Harlem)

[EdTarbusz]

You're probably right. You know more about that time period than anyone else I know of here, and those integration posts were dug up from years ago.

I think the confusion lies with the St Louis Browns. They signed two black players in 1947 (Willard Brown & Hank Thompson) but released them before the 1948 season started. The experiment didn't go well in St Louis.

[csh19792001]

The way I see it, Ruth had two careers. His first career was as a pitcher from 1914-1919 when he went 89-46 with an ERA+ of 125, along with a 3-0 record in the World Series with a 0.87 era(3 time World Series champ).

PITCHING LEADERS: 1915-1919

ERA ERA
1 Grover C Alexander 1.57
2 Walter Johnson 1.69
3 Fred Toney 2.10
4 Eddie Cicotte 2.11
5 Hippo Vaughn 2.11
6 Carl Mays 2.15
7 Babe Ruth 2.16
8 Jeff Pfeffer 2.19
9 Stan Coveleski 2.33
10 Slim Sallee 2.34

INNINGS PITCHED IP
1 Walter Johnson 1648.2
2 Hippo Vaughn 1457
3 Grover C Alexander 1414
4 Eddie Cicotte 1329.1
5 Hooks Dauss 1324.1
6 Dick Rudolph 1324
7 Wilbur Cooper 1290
8 Dave Davenport 1267.1
9 Fred Toney 1266
10 Carl Mays 1223.2
12 Babe Ruth 1161.1

SHUTOUTS SHO
1 Grover C Alexander 45
2 Walter Johnson 33
3 Hippo Vaughn 25
4 Fred Toney 22
T5 Pol Perritt 20
T5 Jeff Pfeffer 20
T7 Joe Bush 19
T7 Lefty Tyler 19
T7 Dutch Leonard 19
10 Dick Rudolph 18
T11 Babe Ruth 17

WINNING PERCENTAGE PCT
1 Grover C Alexander .704
2 Babe Ruth .659
3 Eddie Cicotte .630
4 Hippo Vaughn .617
5 Walter Johnson .608
6 Slim Sallee .607
7 Stan Coveleski .606
8 Carl Mays .600
9 Hooks Dauss .592
10 Bernie Boland .588

WINS W
1 Walter Johnson 118
2 Grover C Alexander 112
3 Hippo Vaughn 103
4 Eddie Cicotte 97
5 Hooks Dauss 93
6 Babe Ruth 87
7 Carl Mays 81
8 Stan Coveleski 80
9 Fred Toney 78
10 Dick Rudolph 76

Even as a kid (compared to the veterans on these lists) look at what this guy was able to do....just incredible.

There will never be another remotely like him ever again.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Ted's own feelings about Yankee Stadium

Also, Ted said in his memoirs:
"For the 11 years Stengel managed the Yankees Ballclub, there was a rule there that if Williams beats us in the seventh, eighth, or ninth innings, that player was fined. So, you see, I didn't get much to hit there, although that's no excuse on my part."

"I hit .309 at Yankee Stadium! Now, back home at Fenway, I hit .365 against Yankee pitching...against basically the same pitchers. It's true that I had to hit it 400 feet at Fenway and about 310 at Yankee Stadium, but goddamn it, I had a hard time because I never got a good ball to hit."

Certainly not going to take anything away from Ted but Fenway was a hitter's Heaven. One look at Fred Lynn, Yaz and some others, and they were left handed batters, that look is an indication of Fenway hitting conditions. Especially the doubles home and away for those lefty's and you could include Boggs when he was there.
They were left handers and many of those doubles were not banged off the wall in left field. Fenway also had a weird configuration in right and right center, more than a couple of opposing right fielders said it was one of the more difficult right fields to play.

[csh19792001]

I.e, Ruth smashed 3 doubles in one game in the Dead Ball era against a pitcher that threw in the high 90s with pinpoint control? And he did this with a 42 ounce bat? Wow! Granted, Walter only threw one pitch. But it was arguably the best pitch ever. That's pretty impressive. I've read that Ruth hit some severely scuffed up balls that broke two feet on the way to the plate for some long doubles to right center as well. I want to call him stupid for not using a 32 inch whip bat. He could have generated so much more speed with a bat like that. But maybe he needed that heavier bat to put one out of parks back then with 450-487 ft centerfields. He still did ok, so maybe I'll bite my tongue.

The ball was livened in 19', and this is evidenced by a big jump in Runs/Game and the rate stats. The last true deadball year was 1918.

If one extrapolates his 1914-19 offensive numbers into full season (154 game context), how many homers would have hit, at the same level of production as his actual output? And clearly, even those projections would unfairly portray his talent, because he was concentrating mainly on pitching those years, and he was very young, also.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

PITCHING LEADERS: 1915-1919

ERA ERA
1 Grover C Alexander 1.57
2 Walter Johnson 1.69
3 Fred Toney 2.10
4 Eddie Cicotte 2.11
5 Hippo Vaughn 2.11
6 Carl Mays 2.15
7 Babe Ruth 2.16
8 Jeff Pfeffer 2.19
9 Stan Coveleski 2.33
10 Slim Sallee 2.34

INNINGS PITCHED IP
1 Walter Johnson 1648.2
2 Hippo Vaughn 1457
3 Grover C Alexander 1414
4 Eddie Cicotte 1329.1
5 Hooks Dauss 1324.1
6 Dick Rudolph 1324
7 Wilbur Cooper 1290
8 Dave Davenport 1267.1
9 Fred Toney 1266
10 Carl Mays 1223.2
12 Babe Ruth 1161.1

SHUTOUTS SHO
1 Grover C Alexander 45
2 Walter Johnson 33
3 Hippo Vaughn 25
4 Fred Toney 22
T5 Pol Perritt 20
T5 Jeff Pfeffer 20
T7 Joe Bush 19
T7 Lefty Tyler 19
T7 Dutch Leonard 19
10 Dick Rudolph 18
T11 Babe Ruth 17

WINNING PERCENTAGE PCT
1 Grover C Alexander .704
2 Babe Ruth .659
3 Eddie Cicotte .630
4 Hippo Vaughn .617
5 Walter Johnson .608
6 Slim Sallee .607
7 Stan Coveleski .606
8 Carl Mays .600
9 Hooks Dauss .592
10 Bernie Boland .588

WINS W
1 Walter Johnson 118
2 Grover C Alexander 112
3 Hippo Vaughn 103
4 Eddie Cicotte 97
5 Hooks Dauss 93
6 Babe Ruth 87
7 Carl Mays 81
8 Stan Coveleski 80
9 Fred Toney 78
10 Dick Rudolph 76

Even as a kid (compared to the veterans on these lists) look at what this guy was able to do....just incredible.

There will never be another remotely like him ever again.

Also to be considered in 1918 and 1919 he was not always sitting the bench resting between starts in 1918 and 1919.
Beside the pitching 1918, 13 games first base and 59 games in the outfield.
1919, 4 games first base and 111 games in the outfield. Over those two seasons he was 22-12.

When he complained, that he was getting tired, no longer wanted to pitch, he was told , "have you tried getting more sleep." Probably some truth in that, he was a bit wild when first coming to the Bosox.
But, obviously, just a matter of time before there would be no more pitching, even if he stayed with the Bosox.