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  • Originally posted by pheasant View Post
    I also believe that Ted Williams would have suffered in the Dead Ball era quite a bit. He didn't have the power of a Ruth or Mantle. But he may have been like a Joe Jackson, which isn't so bad.
    Williams just didn't have the speed to have been the best hitter in the game in the dead ball era. Even though he was probably better at hitting a baseball than anyone who ever lived, I agree with you that in an earlier time, his effectiveness would have been decimated.

    Who had more foot speed and ran the bases better in their primes- Babe or Williams? I would strongly suspect Ruth.

    As far as Joe Jackson, I think he may have had more power than basically everyone during his time, even Cobb. "Isolated Power" is a better indicator of pure slugging than slugging percentage itself....

    AMERICAN LEAGUE LEADERS
    1911-1920


    ISOLATED POWER

    1 Joe Jackson .162
    2 Ty Cobb .150
    3 Sam Crawford .148
    4 Tris Speaker .146
    5 George Sisler .137
    6 Home Run Baker .136
    7 Wally Pipp .135
    8 Happy Felsch .134
    9 Braggo Roth .133
    10 Bobby Veach .127

    AVERAGE
    1 Ty Cobb .383
    2 Joe Jackson .357
    3 Tris Speaker .349
    4 George Sisler .347
    5 Eddie Collins .332
    6 Sam Crawford .318
    7 Home Run Baker .313
    8 Stuffy McInnis .308
    9 Bobby Veach .304
    10 Clyde Milan .298

    EXTRA BASE HITS
    1 Tris Speaker 566
    2 Joe Jackson 521
    3 Ty Cobb 503
    4 Bobby Veach 394
    5 Del Pratt 387
    6 Harry Hooper 378
    7 Home Run Baker 370
    8 Duffy Lewis 346
    9 Eddie Collins 345
    10 Larry Gardner 338

    TRIPLES
    1 Joe Jackson 163

    2 Ty Cobb 156
    3 Tris Speaker 130
    T4 Sam Crawford 116
    T4 Harry Hooper 116
    6 Eddie Collins 112
    7 Bobby Veach 107
    8 Larry Gardner 99
    9 Shano Collins 96
    10 Del Pratt 94

    SLG
    1 Ty Cobb .532
    2 Joe Jackson .519
    3 Tris Speaker .495
    4 George Sisler .484
    5 Sam Crawford .465
    6 Home Run Baker .449
    7 Bobby Veach .431
    8 Eddie Collins .428
    9 Happy Felsch .427
    10 Braggo Roth .417

    Comment


    • CAREER
      1876-1992


      ISOLATED POWER ISO
      1 Babe Ruth .348

      2 Lou Gehrig .292
      3 Hank Greenberg .292
      4 Ted Williams .289
      5 Jimmie Foxx .284
      6 Ralph Kiner .269
      7 Mike Schmidt .260
      8 Mickey Mantle .259
      9 Willie Mays .256
      10 Joe DiMaggio .254

      SECONDARY AVERAGE SEC
      1 Babe Ruth .594

      2 Ted Williams .553
      3 Mickey Mantle .487
      4 Lou Gehrig .481
      5 Bill Joyce .471
      6 Ralph Kiner .467
      7 Jimmie Foxx .464
      8 Hank Greenberg .462
      9 Rickey Henderson .454
      10 Mike Schmidt .450


      Ruth is so far ahead in sheer power it's ridiculous. That includes Teddy Ballgame.

      *Note: I left out steroid era guys.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by pheasant View Post
        I.e, Ruth smashed 3 doubles in one game in the Dead Ball era against a pitcher that threw in the high 90s with pinpoint control? And he did this with a 42 ounce bat? Wow! Granted, Walter only threw one pitch. But it was arguably the best pitch ever. That's pretty impressive. I've read that Ruth hit some severely scuffed up balls that broke two feet on the way to the plate for some long doubles to right center as well. I want to call him stupid for not using a 32 inch whip bat. He could have generated so much more speed with a bat like that. But maybe he needed that heavier bat to put one out of parks back then with 450-487 ft centerfields. He still did ok, so maybe I'll bite my tongue.
        Bat speed is not simply a matter of "whip." It is also a matter of MASS. Ruth used a 42 oz. bat and a 47 oz. bat and didn't use a bat under 40 oz. until his last two seasons. His own torque + thrust + bat mass added up to the forward force of the bat [bat speed]. Furthermore, if the MOI of the bat [balance point] is nearer the handle, the bat is "lighter" for the hitter in executing his swing.

        Ruth was big and strong and knew something about bats and power generation.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by leewileyfan View Post
          Bat speed is not simply a matter of "whip." It is also a matter of MASS. Ruth used a 42 oz. bat and a 47 oz. bat and didn't use a bat under 40 oz. until his last two seasons. His own torque + thrust + bat mass added up to the forward force of the bat [bat speed]. Furthermore, if the MOI of the bat [balance point] is nearer the handle, the bat is "lighter" for the hitter in executing his swing.

          Ruth was big and strong and knew something about bats and power generation.
          I agree. He probably would have only hit the ball 430 feet regularly with a 32-34 ounce bat. But he would have made much more contact and hit for higher averages. And those huge centerfields might have cost him a bunch homeruns with a lighter bat. But today, the lighter bat would have helped out much more with the smaller parks today. Like I said, he still did ok, even with that monstrous bat.

          Comment


          • Happy Birthday Bam.

            A day late on this one, another great ballplayer, Happy Birthday Hank aaron.
            Attached Files
            Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 02-06-2012, 11:34 AM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by csh19792001 View Post
              Williams just didn't have the speed to have been the best hitter in the game in the dead ball era. Even though he was probably better at hitting a baseball than anyone who ever lived, I agree with you that in an earlier time, his effectiveness would have been decimated.

              Who had more foot speed and ran the bases better in their primes- Babe or Williams? I would strongly suspect Ruth.

              As far as Joe Jackson, I think he may have had more power than basically everyone during his time, even Cobb. "Isolated Power" is a better indicator of pure slugging than slugging percentage itself....

              AMERICAN LEAGUE LEADERS
              1911-1920


              ISOLATED POWER

              1 Joe Jackson .162
              2 Ty Cobb .150
              3 Sam Crawford .148
              4 Tris Speaker .146
              5 George Sisler .137
              6 Home Run Baker .136
              7 Wally Pipp .135
              8 Happy Felsch .134
              9 Braggo Roth .133
              10 Bobby Veach .127

              AVERAGE
              1 Ty Cobb .383
              2 Joe Jackson .357
              3 Tris Speaker .349
              4 George Sisler .347
              5 Eddie Collins .332
              6 Sam Crawford .318
              7 Home Run Baker .313
              8 Stuffy McInnis .308
              9 Bobby Veach .304
              10 Clyde Milan .298

              EXTRA BASE HITS
              1 Tris Speaker 566
              2 Joe Jackson 521
              3 Ty Cobb 503
              4 Bobby Veach 394
              5 Del Pratt 387
              6 Harry Hooper 378
              7 Home Run Baker 370
              8 Duffy Lewis 346
              9 Eddie Collins 345
              10 Larry Gardner 338

              TRIPLES
              1 Joe Jackson 163

              2 Ty Cobb 156
              3 Tris Speaker 130
              T4 Sam Crawford 116
              T4 Harry Hooper 116
              6 Eddie Collins 112
              7 Bobby Veach 107
              8 Larry Gardner 99
              9 Shano Collins 96
              10 Del Pratt 94

              SLG
              1 Ty Cobb .532
              2 Joe Jackson .519
              3 Tris Speaker .495
              4 George Sisler .484
              5 Sam Crawford .465
              6 Home Run Baker .449
              7 Bobby Veach .431
              8 Eddie Collins .428
              9 Happy Felsch .427
              10 Braggo Roth .417
              Shoeless had more triples than Cobb? There's no way he was nearly as fast as Cobb. The boy carried some serious lumber. I would have guessed that Cobb was #1 in triples by quite a margin. I knew that Speaker was the doubles king(792 for a career).

              Comment


              • Originally posted by pheasant View Post
                I.e, Ruth smashed 3 doubles in one game in the Dead Ball era against a pitcher that threw in the high 90s with pinpoint control? And he did this with a 42 ounce bat? Wow! Granted, Walter only threw one pitch. But it was arguably the best pitch ever. That's pretty impressive. I've read that Ruth hit some severely scuffed up balls that broke two feet on the way to the plate for some long doubles to right center as well. I want to call him stupid for not using a 32 inch whip bat. He could have generated so much more speed with a bat like that. But maybe he needed that heavier bat to put one out of parks back then with 450-487 ft centerfields. He still did ok, so maybe I'll bite my tongue.
                On May 25,1921 at St Louis,Ruth used teammate Aaron Ward`s 32 oz.bat for the whole game.According to author Bill Jenkinson he smacked a double to right center,hit a 400 foot plus fly-out to center,and then smacked a 535 foot homer to center.The Babe`s reaction was to laughingly refer to Ward`s bat as a "toothpick"and to exclaim how much further he would have hit the ball if he had used one of his own war clubs!Even after Ruth retired he still recommended that a hitter should use the heaviest bat that he could handle.There was just no changing the Babe`s mindset in regards to using heavy bats.
                Last edited by Nimrod; 02-06-2012, 01:50 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Nimrod View Post
                  On May 25,1921 at St Louis,Ruth used teammate Aaron Ward`s 32 oz.bat for the whole game.According to author Bill Jenkinson he smacked a double to right center,hit a 400 foot plus fly-out to center,and then smacked a 535 foot homer to center.The Babe`s reaction was to laughingly refer to Ward`s bat as a "toothpick"and to exclaim how much further he would have hit the ball if he had used one of his own war clubs!Even after Ruth retired he still recommended that a hitter should use the heaviest bat that he could handle.There was just no changing the Babe`s mindset in regards to using heavy bats.
                  535 feet with a 32 ounce bat? Perhaps he should have stucked with a smaller bat then.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Nimrod View Post
                    On May 25,1921 at St Louis,Ruth used teammate Aaron Ward`s 32 oz.bat for the whole game.According to author Bill Jenkinson he smacked a double to right center,hit a 400 foot plus fly-out to center,and then smacked a 535 foot homer to center.The Babe`s reaction was to laughingly refer to Ward`s bat as a "toothpick"and to exclaim how much further he would have hit the ball if he had used one of his own war clubs!Even after Ruth retired he still recommended that a hitter should use the heaviest bat that he could handle.There was just no changing the Babe`s mindset in regards to using heavy bats.
                    Ted Williams told a story about borrowing a teammate's bat for a game because he was intrigued by how light it was and how soft it seemed to be, as it was covered with ball indents (I think Ted called it "Cuban Wood"). Splinter popped a HR to CF on a tough pitch with it and was intrigued by how he felt like he could wait longer on the ball and still whip it out of the park. Of course, Ted became a proponent of using relatively light (ash) bats and focusing on bat speed, although I must say that his roughly 35" ~33.5oz bats would be pretty big by modern standards.
                    BBF user BMH from LS reported that Adam Dunn used a beech bat to hit possibly his longest career HR, but then dropped that wood type because he didn't like the feel. Maybe he should have gone back to beech for last season, couldn't have made him hit any worse...
                    "I throw him four wide ones, then try to pick him off first base." - Preacher Roe on pitching to Musial

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by hellborn View Post
                      Ted Williams told a story about borrowing a teammate's bat for a game because he was intrigued by how light it was and how soft it seemed to be, as it was covered with ball indents (I think Ted called it "Cuban Wood"). Splinter popped a HR to CF on a tough pitch with it and was intrigued by how he felt like he could wait longer on the ball and still whip it out of the park. Of course, Ted became a proponent of using relatively light (ash) bats and focusing on bat speed, although I must say that his roughly 35" ~33.5oz bats would be pretty big by modern standards.
                      BBF user BMH from LS reported that Adam Dunn used a beech bat to hit possibly his longest career HR, but then dropped that wood type because he didn't like the feel. Maybe he should have gone back to beech for last season, couldn't have made him hit any worse...
                      Yes,he and Musial were some of the first great hitters to use light bats.I think Williams said his teammate`s bat was like "Pumpkin wood".It seems like even the little guys like Joe Sewell and Paul Waner used 40oz. plus bats in the 20`s and 30`s(and before).Speaking of bats,I just read an interesting article about one of the last bats that Gehrig used it was put up on auction for over $403,000.It was owned by actor Kurt Russell`s father.You can just google "Bing Russell Lou Gehrig"and click on the first item:1938-39 game used bat.Some good anecdotes about Gehrig,Gomez,and McCarthy.Apparently,the Yankee`s would secretly do some chowing down during games(but no boozing-maybe that was reserved for McCarthy).

                      Comment


                      • Double Post, gents.
                        Last edited by csh19792001; 02-06-2012, 04:30 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by pheasant View Post
                          Shoeless had more triples than Cobb? There's no way he was nearly as fast as Cobb. The boy carried some serious lumber. I would have guessed that Cobb was #1 in triples by quite a margin. I knew that Speaker was the doubles king(792 for a career).
                          Joe had more triples than Ty from 1911-1920 (while they were both full time players). Jackson also had 14 inside the park homers (54 total home runs), Cobb 46 inside the park jobs out of 117, total.

                          Comiskey I wasn't bigger than the other parks of the era, but it was a tomb for runs and home runs. This was mainly because it had foul territory roughly the size of Oakland's Coliseum. Hell, Cobb only hit 3 home runs there in his career...

                          Code:
                          Player Name               HR     G    AB    R    H  2B  3B  HR  RBI   BB IBB   SO HBP  SH  SF GDP   SB  CS   AVG   OBP   SLG
                          [B]Carlton Fisk              94   636  2205  306  568 103   7  94  348  226  38  355  36   7  27  45   26  20  .258  .333  .439[/B]
                          Harold Baines             88   692  2524  338  741 145  24  88  428  230  42  361   5   6  29  75   14   9  .294  .350  .475
                          Bill Melton               88   488  1737  251  460  65   3  88  285  216  16  294  13  12  17  39    9  11  .265  .347  .458
                          Ron Kittle                66   333  1091  150  258  55   1  66  185  110  11  294   6   0  12  26    7   7  .236  .307  .470
                          Sherm Lollar              66   716  2176  246  578  89   5  66  321  284  40  174  48  16  16  80   12   6  .266  .361  .402
                          Minnie Minoso             65   716  2529  460  790 138  48  65  395  375  27  209  70  26  23  69   99  56  .312  .412  .482
                          Greg Walker               56   416  1383  190  364  79  15  56  224  145  11  252   9   2   8  25    6   3  .263  .335  .463
                          Dick Allen                49   185   626  122  195  38   7  49  150   91  15  135   1   1   6  19   16   3  .312  .396  .629
                          Greg Luzinski             49   263   912  145  255  57   1  49  183  135  12  175  10   0  17  23    4   1  .280  .372  .505
                          Zeke Bonura               48   278  1079  213  364  81   8  48  248  145   0   53   4   7   0   0    8   1  .337  .418  .561
                          Carlos May                48   502  1766  252  511  72  11  48  269  230  28  226  17   1  17  42   39  24  .289  .373  .424
                          Roy Sievers               46   227   756  121  204  31   3  46  167  107  10  108   9   2   4  22    4   2  .270  .365  .501
                          Pete Ward                 46   436  1425  159  363  59   3  46  200  169  24  233  22   6  18  22    7   8  .255  .339  .397
                          Eddie Robinson            45   282   966  132  260  32   5  45  180  120  10   74  14  11   1  15    3   2  .269  .358  .452
                          [B]Babe Ruth                 45   167   604  146  193  36   9  45  149  147   0   88   2  10   0   0    7   8  .320  .454  .632[/B]
                          Al Smith                  44   396  1372  207  353  62  12  44  187  154  11  166  13   6   7  48   16   8  .257  .336  .416
                          Al Simmons                41   339  1394  239  447  71  29  41  273  107   0   91   4   8   0   2    9   9  .321  .371  .501
                          Chet Lemon                40   429  1476  224  411  91  18  40  194  171   8  187  34  19  17  32   25  20  .278  .363  .446
                          Jorge Orta                40   531  1865  246  570  92  25  40  270  166   8  237  11   9  28  39   36  17  .306  .361  .446
                          Jim Landis                39   546  1773  251  452  66  28  39  186  250  13  258  30  29  12  33   64  24  .255  .354  .390
                          [B]Jimmie Foxx               38   154   558  117  181  25  15  38  134  102   0   92   2   6   0   4    6   6  .324  .431  .627[/B]
                          [B]Lou Gehrig                37   151   594  149  226  50  11  37  154  112   0   47   2   7   0   0   10   9  .380  .480  .689[/B]
                          Jim Rivera                37   517  1585  218  404  65  31  37  188  156  17  242   8  22   7  23   79  35  .255  .323  .405
                          Joe Kuhel                 36   538  1966  307  521  95  24  36  240  257   0  144  11  26   0  28   49  25  .265  .353  .393
                          [B]Ted Williams              34   166   577  104  171  25   7  34  119  115  10   56   2   0   3  15    1   3  .296  .413  .541[/B]

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by pheasant View Post
                            535 feet with a 32 ounce bat? Perhaps he should have stucked with a smaller bat then.
                            Statements of these by Jenkinson seriously strain his credulity as a legit, honest journalist and author. To go back to what we were talking about over on the "mammoth homeruns" thread, including the postseason, there have been about 1.4-1.5 million plate appearances since April, 2005. Not a single 500 foot home run. The AVERAGE ML player is almost Babe's size now. Almost every great hitter swings for home runs, many swing as hard as they can every time. Steroids. They lift 5-6 days a week. They have their own nutritionists and personal trainers....the baseballs are probably more resilient, the bats almost definitely are.

                            Babe was the greatest slugger in MLB history, but he wasn't Bill Brasky, folks. I LOVED Jenkinson's 104 Home Runs book, but I have to seriously question using second or third hand accounts.....and stipulate those perceptions as hard facts....
                            Last edited by csh19792001; 02-06-2012, 07:02 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by csh19792001 View Post
                              The AVERAGE ML player is almost Babe's size now. Almost every great hitter swings for home runs, many swing as hard as they can every time. Steroids. They lift 5-6 days a week. They have their own nutritionists and personal trainers....
                              There's much more to it than size & strength though, you're oversimplifying it. If it were simply about size & strength, you'd have to dismiss Mickey Mantle, too. And Prince Fielder, as a matter of fact...

                              There's a high school player named Nick Williams who is a top prospect, he is a slender guy, but has insane bat speed because his technique is so good. I watched him rattle balls high off the Chase Field scoreboard back in Dec. 2010 (he was hurt for the latest home run derby there), and expect to see him do the same in a major league game within 3-4 years.

                              Your logic, if I understand it correctly, is that "because others are as strong or stronger than Ruth, and they don't hit 500 foot homers, then he couldnt have either." Am I misunderstanding you, or is that it? If that's it, I have to disagree...
                              ESPN Home Run Tracker
                              Home run distances for every home run hit in MLB

                              http://www.hittrackeronline.com

                              Comment


                              • Speaking of bats.Goose Goslin and his striped bat used in opening day, April 12, 1932. Banned, no longer used after that day. Actually never even used in that game.
                                Attached Files
                                Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 02-06-2012, 08:42 PM.

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