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*Babe Ruth Thread*

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    Bamay22
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  • Bamay22
    replied
    Originally posted by GoslinFan View Post

    So by mainstream you mean the casual fan. I'd argue that the casual fan thinks fat homerun hitter, and barely knows much about his pitching.

    Agree that for his career, Cobb was not on the level of his eras serious ball hawks. That claim hasn't been made. But....I think he is closer to them, than Williams is to him.
    Well, I think a mainstream fan would have at least some grasp on his skills as a pitcher but that's beside the point. Ruth dominated his sport at both hitting and pitching. I've just seen people(NOT HERE) try to claim that Ruth would have been one of the greatest pitchers of all time and although he had a great peak, I'm not sure how long he would have stayed in the league had he not gone to New York and became well... Babe Ruth. Just look at what happened to his teammate Smoky Joe Wood.

    But again, this is all speculation and doesn't really matter as like I said, Ruth is the greatest to ever play and I don't think it's that close either.

    Ok, I think we've reached middle ground as I agree with your statement about Cobb being closer to the Speakers and the Felschs of his day than he is of Williams.

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  • Yuri89
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  • Yuri89
    replied
    [QUOTE=Floyd Gondolli;n3636706]
    Originally posted by Yuri89 View Post

    Read this, you'll enjoy/appreciate it, Yuri.

    https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...act-ped-factor

    The question then becomes, I think...

    Where would/should we rank someone with 500 stolen bases, 550ish home runs, ~130 WAR, and, one of the best defensive left fielders in history?

    Who also played his prime in a league full of juicers, killing his relative stats from 1986-1998?
    And that is kind of a discrete aproximation. I think he would ended up very close to Aarons value for example. For some people here Aaron does not rank superhigh, for me he does. And consider than diferent than Aaron he already had 3 MVPS on the bag. And as you said there is a portion of his career, where unless hes proven PEDs his rate stats are definitely hurt. In the period of 1986-1993 I dont think the juicing was quite massive because the league OPS seemed very normal, however from 1994- 1998 definitely

    Leave a comment:

  • Floyd Gondolli
    Registered User

  • Floyd Gondolli
    replied
    [QUOTE=Yuri89;n3636705]
    Originally posted by GoslinFan View Post
    I have to disagree here with the idea that Bonds would end up in the 8-12 range. Bonds at 1998 was virtually hand to hand with Willie Mays at the same edge slightly under, but very very short distance among them. To say that Bonds would not climb to at least a top 5 spot is assuming that his decline would be kind of meh, and certainly he wasnt showing those signs.
    Read this, you'll enjoy/appreciate it, Yuri.

    https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...act-ped-factor

    The question then becomes, I think...

    Where would/should we rank someone with 500 stolen bases, 550ish home runs, ~130 WAR, and, one of the best defensive left fielders in history?

    Who also played his prime in a league full of juicers, killing his relative stats from 1986-1998?

    Leave a comment:

  • Yuri89
    Registered User

  • Yuri89
    replied
    [QUOTE=GoslinFan;n3636655]
    Originally posted by Bamay22 View Post




    Don’t know how much of an impact? It is pretty well documented what he took and when he took it. He didn’t start using in his rookie season. We had through 1998 to see what kind of player he was (assuming) naturally. He was incredible but would most likely be in the 8-12 all-time range.

    Don’t know how much of an impact? We saw what kind of player he was post 1998. Can you show me a single post where people completely dismiss him because of known steroid use? I think most people take his natural numbers at face value and use common sense to deduce that he would have soon been in decline without the help of PEDs.



    Yes.



    I would have Williams ahead as a hitter as well. My point was that it is close enough for Cobb’s hitting along with his other attributes that a consensus opinion in polling usually has him ahead by 3-6 spots.




    The polling I was referencing was Fever polls in overall. Just defensively I don’t think you will find a single person who thinks Williams was even close to Cobb defensively. Williams self admittedly was basically daydreaming in the outfield about hitting. He simply lacked the willingness to even put forth an effort. And he had Fenway’s wall for a cover.

    Nobody claimed Cobb was Speaker or Hap Felsch, or Milan. But he was more than capable especially sans arm injury. You like to talk about sleeping on stuff. I think you are sleeping on Cobb’s offensive dominance and his defense as well.

    Let us also not forget that many of Cobb's baserunning skills created runs and team opportunities that do not show up in the data. As overall players he's head and shoulders above Williams imo. As hitters he has a case but it is a stretch, will grant you that.
    I have to disagree here with the idea that Bonds would end up in the 8-12 range. Bonds at 1998 was virtually hand to hand with Willie Mays at the same age, slightly under, but very very short distance among them. To say that Bonds would not climb to at least a top 5 spot is assuming that his decline would be kind of meh, and certainly he wasnt showing those signs. The other part is that he did what he did on a league that was full with steroid use, and a big bunch of other superstars that were involved with juicing never came even close to what he did. So he must received some akvnowledgment for his playstation seasons.
    Yuri89
    Registered User
    Last edited by Yuri89; 01-11-2022, 02:28 PM.

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  • GoslinFan
    Registered User

  • GoslinFan
    replied
    Originally posted by Bamay22 View Post

    I never said Williams was better than Cobb defensively. Nobody says this. What I said is that it's closer than people like yourself would make it out to be. This isn't me trying to raise Williams's status as a defender but lower Cobb's as I don't think he was an elite outfielder. Could you show me data that suggests that Cobb was as good as you say he is?

    Also, why would I pay attention to what other people would say in regards to a debate that I am trying to find out myself? They can say what they think but this doesn't reinforce any actual opinion. I mean are we really going to make objective truths based on how people vote? I would rather look at statistics and then make the opinion myself than see what other people say because to be quite honest I would rather make a judgment based on what I think. I love different input from people but at the end of the day, it is my opinion. Also just once again, my claim is not that Williams is better than Cobb defensively so I don't know why you think I made that claim and keep trying to pin me on it because that is not a claim that I would die on.

    Also, go check out my recent comment on the Williams vs Cobb thread and see what you think.

    My claim about Ruth being overrated as a pitcher is more based on what mainstream baseball fans think and not what people on here think. Also, even if people here claimed that Ruth was one of the greats as a pitcher, see above, it wouldn't matter in my eyes.

    Just know that I mean no disrespect in what I'm saying
    So by mainstream you mean the casual fan. I'd argue that the casual fan thinks fat homerun hitter, and barely knows much about his pitching.

    Agree that for his career, Cobb was not on the level of his eras serious ball hawks. That claim hasn't been made. But....I think he is closer to them, than Williams is to him.

    Leave a comment:

  • Bamay22
    Registered User

  • Bamay22
    replied
    Originally posted by GoslinFan View Post

    So your next project is this...

    Find a single post where someone ranked Williams ahead of Cobb defensively.

    Find a single post where someone claimed Babe Ruth's 147 career games started on the mound warrants him being one of the greatest lefties of all time.

    Fact is, you are making outlandish assertions as a way to justify your already held opinion.
    I never said Williams was better than Cobb defensively. Nobody says this. What I said is that it's closer than people like yourself would make it out to be. This isn't me trying to raise Williams's status as a defender but lower Cobb's as I don't think he was an elite outfielder. Could you show me data that suggests that Cobb was as good as you say he is?

    Also, why would I pay attention to what other people would say in regards to a debate that I am trying to find out myself? They can say what they think but this doesn't reinforce any actual opinion. I mean are we really going to make objective truths based on how people vote? I would rather look at statistics and then make the opinion myself than see what other people say because to be quite honest I would rather make a judgment based on what I think. I love different input from people but at the end of the day, it is my opinion. Also just once again, my claim is not that Williams is better than Cobb defensively so I don't know why you think I made that claim and keep trying to pin me on it because that is not a claim that I would die on.

    Also, go check out my recent comment on the Williams vs Cobb thread and see what you think.

    My claim about Ruth being overrated as a pitcher is more based on what mainstream baseball fans think and not what people on here think. Also, even if people here claimed that Ruth was one of the greats as a pitcher, see above, it wouldn't matter in my eyes.

    Just know that I mean no disrespect in what I'm saying
    Bamay22
    Registered User
    Last edited by Bamay22; 01-11-2022, 12:37 PM.

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  • GoslinFan
    Registered User

  • GoslinFan
    replied
    Originally posted by Bamay22 View Post

    Ok, maybe I'm looking at it through the lens of what the mainstream community thinks as I've often seen Ruth at like number 10 in some lists or just outside maybe just for name value probably.
    So your next project is this...

    Find a single post where someone ranked Williams ahead of Cobb defensively.

    Find a single post where someone claimed Babe Ruth's 147 career games started on the mound warrants him being one of the greatest lefties of all time.

    Fact is, you are making outlandish assertions as a way to justify your already held opinion.

    Leave a comment:

  • Bamay22
    Registered User

  • Bamay22
    replied
    Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post

    Agree with both thoughts. I for one never said or thought that he was one of the greatest LH pitchers of all time.
    Never a thought he would be reach the level of Johnson or Alexander.
    Have not seen many saying he was one of the greatest LH of all time, that would be a small number.
    I do agree with those in that time that thought he was the best LH pitcher in those years.
    Ok, maybe I'm looking at it through the lens of what the mainstream community thinks as I've often seen Ruth at like number 10 in some lists or just outside maybe just for name value probably.

    Leave a comment:

  • SHOELESSJOE3
    Registered User

  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Originally posted by Bamay22 View Post

    I think Ruth is overrated in the fact that many people try to paint him as one of the greatest lefthanded pitchers of all time when I just don't think that that is the case. In all honesty, I see Ruth's career as a pitcher(had he stuck to it obviously) turning out more like Smoky Joe Wood rather than Johnson's or Grover Cleveland's. But, granted this is all speculation and Ruth definitely did have an amazing peak, albeit short, on the mound but I just wouldn't put hum up there with some of the great southpaws like Grove, R. Johnson, or Spahn.
    Agree with both thoughts. I for one never said or thought that he was one of the greatest LH pitchers of all time.
    Never a thought he would be reach the level of Johnson or Alexander.
    Have not seen many saying he was one of the greatest LH of all time, that would be a small number.
    I do agree with those in that time that thought he was the best LH pitcher in those years.

    Leave a comment:

  • Bamay22
    Registered User

  • Bamay22
    replied
    [QUOTE=GoslinFan;n3636655]
    Originally posted by Bamay22 View Post




    Don’t know how much of an impact? It is pretty well documented what he took and when he took it. He didn’t start using in his rookie season. We had through 1998 to see what kind of player he was (assuming) naturally. He was incredible but would most likely be in the 8-12 all-time range.

    Don’t know how much of an impact? We saw what kind of player he was post 1998. Can you show me a single post where people completely dismiss him because of known steroid use? I think most people take his natural numbers at face value and use common sense to deduce that he would have soon been in decline without the help of PEDs.



    Yes.



    I would have Williams ahead as a hitter as well. My point was that it is close enough for Cobb’s hitting along with his other attributes that a consensus opinion in polling usually has him ahead by 3-6 spots.




    The polling I was referencing was Fever polls in overall. Just defensively I don’t think you will find a single person who thinks Williams was even close to Cobb defensively. Williams self admittedly was basically daydreaming in the outfield about hitting. He simply lacked the willingness to even put forth an effort. And he had Fenway’s wall for a cover.

    Nobody claimed Cobb was Speaker or Hap Felsch, or Milan. But he was more than capable especially sans arm injury. You like to talk about sleeping on stuff. I think you are sleeping on Cobb’s offensive dominance and his defense as well.

    Let us also not forget that many of Cobb's baserunning skills created runs and team opportunities that do not show up in the data. As overall players he's head and shoulders above Williams imo. As hitters he has a case but it is a stretch, will grant you that.
    Yes, I acknowledge the fact that it is universally accepted that Bonds took them but just due to the very different circumstances of what was going on around the league at the time and how they actually made him head and shoulders above everybody else, I can't say that I can rightly punish him for it and he still remains as the 2nd greatest baseball player ever in my eyes.

    Are you a WAR guy? Let's say Williams does have those seasons that he lost, then he basically has Cobb tied in WAR so that alone should tell you how much of a lead Williams has as a hitter. Now, I don't think WAR is the deciding factor but when something like this is the case, it does give a little perspective. Do you also factor in league quality differences as well because I believe Williams had tougher circumstances in that regard.

    You love to talk about Cobb's defense but is there anything out there that suggests that he was above average in CF?

    Yes we've been over Cobb's edge as a baserunner but like I said, that doesn't even out the gap between Williams's large edge as a hitter in my eyes. Like I said Williams is basically tied with number 1 as far as the greatest hitter of all time whereas Cobb wouldn't' be in that inner circle. I don't have an official top hitters list but just imagining it in my head it'd probably go: 1. Bonds/Ruth/Williams 4. Gehrig 5. Cob.

    Leave a comment:

  • Bamay22
    Registered User

  • Bamay22
    replied
    Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post

    I don't think he was overrated as a pitcher. No way to know what might have been had he stayed with pitching but the only seasons pitching only 1915-6-17 he was one of the best in both leagues. Not going to say he would have made the HOF pitching, we have no idea what might have been.

    But in those 3 seasons pitching only 1915-16-17, there were two pitchers better than him, Walter Johnson and Grover Alexander. Babe was not Walter or Grover, they proved over many seasons what they could do, he pitched only 3 seasons.

    But the fact that the only two better than him, two of the greatest show he had it. I averaged out all "percentage based stats" not wins and losses.
    And those two greats were the only pitchers ahead of Ruth.
    I think Ruth is overrated in the fact that many people try to paint him as one of the greatest lefthanded pitchers of all time when I just don't think that that is the case. In all honesty, I see Ruth's career as a pitcher(had he stuck to it obviously) turning out more like Smoky Joe Wood rather than Johnson's or Grover Cleveland's. But, granted this is all speculation and Ruth definitely did have an amazing peak, albeit short, on the mound but I just wouldn't put hum up there with some of the great southpaws like Grove, R. Johnson, or Spahn.

    Leave a comment:

  • SHOELESSJOE3
    Registered User

  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Originally posted by Bamay22 View Post
    First time discovering this thread and all I have to say is this: Babe Ruth is the greatest baseball player to have ever lived and I really don’t think that it’s that particularly close either. I genuinely believe that Ruth just played the game that much better than everybody else ever has.

    Although often overrated as a pitcher, there’s no denying that he had an excellent peak and offered an incredibly postseason resume that still stands up today. Is at a 3 way tie for the greatest hitter of all time(you can probably guess who the other 2 are and I’ve debated between them for years and just can’t seem to place one above the others) and introduced the live ball era. Seriously I think it’s really understated in the fact that he outslugged other teams. Some people will take Bonds over him for many understandable reasons but I can’t say Bonds ever elevated the art of hitting the way that Ruth did.

    Along with his status as a hitter, Ruth’s all around game has been criminally underrated. He was a good defensive outfielder and even racked up a 80 TZ(keep in mind that TZ tends to bury old school players) while having surprisingly good range out there. I honestly think it’s a shame that Ruth has the reputation of being a bad defensive outfielder merely because he didn’t look like an athlete and his character of being a fat drunken slob kind of takes over people’s minds. He was also a good baserunner too, another aspect that people underestimate about him.

    That’s basically my summary of Ruth as a whole. I don’t think there’s a single person that’s ever been around any aspect of the game that hasn’t been inspired by him. I might make the argument that he’s the most important modern athlete of all time. Btw I kind of cut the statistics portion off a little bit so if anyone is thinking that I have Ruth as the greatest because of “legendary status” it’s not and I do have much statistical evidence and as well as overall reasoning and general knowledge to back it up.
    I don't think he was overrated as a pitcher. No way to know what might have been had he stayed with pitching but the only seasons pitching only 1915-6-17 he was one of the best in both leagues. Not going to say he would have made the HOF pitching, we have no idea what might have been.

    But in those 3 seasons pitching only 1915-16-17, there were two pitchers better than him, Walter Johnson and Grover Alexander. Babe was not Walter or Grover, they proved over many seasons what they could do, he pitched only 3 seasons.

    But the fact that the only two better than him, two of the greatest show he had it. I averaged out all "percentage based stats" not wins and losses.
    And those two greats were the only pitchers ahead of Ruth.

    Leave a comment:

  • GoslinFan
    Registered User

  • GoslinFan
    replied
    [QUOTE=Bamay22;n3636612]


    When I mean that it's complex with Bonds, I mean that we really don't know how much of an impact it had on his actual performance as well as other league factors as well. I don't think that there is anyone out there that would deny that he did them but I just think that the way people dismiss him because of it isn't really appropriate and I think there are many flawed factors in that kind of reasoning.
    Don’t know how much of an impact? It is pretty well documented what he took and when he took it. He didn’t start using in his rookie season. We had through 1998 to see what kind of player he was (assuming) naturally. He was incredible but would most likely be in the 8-12 all-time range.

    Don’t know how much of an impact? We saw what kind of player he was post 1998. Can you show me a single post where people completely dismiss him because of known steroid use? I think most people take his natural numbers at face value and use common sense to deduce that he would have soon been in decline without the help of PEDs.

    Who do you think is the greatest hitter of all time? Ruth? I'm just assuming Ruth because if it's not Bonds and it's not Williams then Ruth seems to be the only viable option left that can have a claim to that title.
    Yes.

    I will stand by my claim that Williams is a much better hitter than Cobb. Williams is in the inner circle for potentially being the greatest hitter of all time and I don't know that I could say the same for Cobb if we're JUST talking about hitting. Many league quality issues have to be taken into account and like I said, Williams was so good that him losing time actually hurt his RATE stats and not just his career numbers.
    I would have Williams ahead as a hitter as well. My point was that it is close enough for Cobb’s hitting along with his other attributes that a consensus opinion in polling usually has him ahead by 3-6 spots.


    Well, first of all, I don't think a poll where people decide is really the best way in answering the question of who is better defensively Cobb or Williams. I'll just say it outright: I do think Cobb is better defensively. The thing that I am saying is that Cobb was not the kind of premium gold glove center fielder that some people may think he is or what a typical skillset of his would suggest. They both were not great defensively. Cobb was average to below average in CF and Williams was below average in LF. Unless you can show me data proving that Cobb was much better defensively than what I think, than my opinion on that won't change.
    The polling I was referencing was Fever polls in overall. Just defensively I don’t think you will find a single person who thinks Williams was even close to Cobb defensively. Williams self admittedly was basically daydreaming in the outfield about hitting. He simply lacked the willingness to even put forth an effort. And he had Fenway’s wall for a cover.

    Nobody claimed Cobb was Speaker or Hap Felsch, or Milan. But he was more than capable especially sans arm injury. You like to talk about sleeping on stuff. I think you are sleeping on Cobb’s offensive dominance and his defense as well.

    Let us also not forget that many of Cobb's baserunning skills created runs and team opportunities that do not show up in the data. As overall players he's head and shoulders above Williams imo. As hitters he has a case but it is a stretch, will grant you that.

    Leave a comment:

  • Bamay22
    Registered User

  • Bamay22
    replied
    Originally posted by GoslinFan View Post

    All good and I appreciate that. Yeah outfielder and pitcher...injuries are a b*tch lol

    There is no mystery or nuance surrounding what Bonds did. We know what he did after the '98 season where he saw Mac and Sammy do their thing he decided to get involved heavily in PEDs and did so through Balco. It is well documented how he over exerted himself and became injured in '99. After that, he learned and perfected the regiment and the rest is history. But let's not pretend it was natural.

    Williams has a case for best hitter of all time but it is a very narrow case. You have to ignore home/road splits, platoon splits, and a straight up OPS+ disadvantage that cannot be overcome. I also feel that he hurt his team by not extending he zone when needed. Especially since he wasn't exactly Rickey on the paths.

    That's the thing. The majority of people DO BELIEVE that that gap between Williams and Cobb offensively is close enough where Cobb's other attributes enable him to be ranked 3-6 spots ahead. That was my point.

    You saying that you don't think Cobb overpowers Williams defensively? Brotha, put that in a poll and make it so you can see who voted....I guarantee it will be you vs however many others vote. Where in the world did you get the idea that Williams was even average defensively as a left fielder let alone better than Cobb?

    One of the most overrated in history? You joking right? Cobb was a frieking beast through and through and there was always an angle to compensate for weakness as he aged. One of the most cerebral athletes regardless the sport imo
    When I mean that it's complex with Bonds, I mean that we really don't know how much of an impact it had on his actual performance as well as other league factors as well. I don't think that there is anyone out there that would deny that he did them but I just think that the way people dismiss him because of it isn't really appropriate and I think there are many flawed factors in that kind of reasoning.

    Who do you think is the greatest hitter of all time? Ruth? I'm just assuming Ruth because if it's not Bonds and it's not Williams then Ruth seems to be the only viable option left that can have a claim to that title.

    I will stand by my claim that Williams is a much better hitter than Cobb. Williams is in the inner circle for potentially being the greatest hitter of all time and I don't know that I could say the same for Cobb if we're JUST talking about hitting. Many league quality issues have to be taken into account and like I said, Williams was so good that him losing time actually hurt his RATE stats and not just his career numbers.

    Well, first of all, I don't think a poll where people decide is really the best way in answering the question of who is better defensively Cobb or Williams. I'll just say it outright: I do think Cobb is better defensively. The thing that I am saying is that Cobb was not the kind of premium gold glove center fielder that some people may think he is or what a typical skillset of his would suggest. They both were not great defensively. Cobb was average to below average in CF and Williams was below average in LF. Unless you can show me data proving that Cobb was much better defensively than what I think, than my opinion on that won't change.

    Oh no I never said Cobb himself was overrated, he is rightly deserved as one of the greatest athletes that the world has ever seen. I merely said that Cobb's defense is overrated
    Bamay22
    Registered User
    Last edited by Bamay22; 01-10-2022, 12:36 PM.

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  • GoslinFan
    Registered User

  • GoslinFan
    replied
    Originally posted by Bamay22 View Post

    Nah I understand about keeping the discussion where it should be, I was just interested because I’m a baseball player myself currently and am generally intrigued about that kind of stuff.

    The “obvious” for Bonds I feel is a lot more complicated and nuanced than just the dismissal of his talent

    I don’t know about the fact that Williams not being the best hitter of all time(a case can very well be made that he is though) necessarily makes him worse than Cobb. The debate is Cobb vs Williams and not how good they are in reflection to everybody else in history.

    I totally 100 percent agree about there being more to being the best baseball player than hitting but IMO Williams was just THAT much better of a hitter than Cobb was and like o stated before, I don’t think Cobb necessarily overpowers Williams defensively and is probably one of the most overrated defensive players in history
    All good and I appreciate that. Yeah outfielder and pitcher...injuries are a b*tch lol

    There is no mystery or nuance surrounding what Bonds did. We know what he did after the '98 season where he saw Mac and Sammy do their thing he decided to get involved heavily in PEDs and did so through Balco. It is well documented how he over exerted himself and became injured in '99. After that, he learned and perfected the regiment and the rest is history. But let's not pretend it was natural.

    Williams has a case for best hitter of all time but it is a very narrow case. You have to ignore home/road splits, platoon splits, and a straight up OPS+ disadvantage that cannot be overcome. I also feel that he hurt his team by not extending he zone when needed. Especially since he wasn't exactly Rickey on the paths.

    That's the thing. The majority of people DO BELIEVE that that gap between Williams and Cobb offensively is close enough where Cobb's other attributes enable him to be ranked 3-6 spots ahead. That was my point.

    You saying that you don't think Cobb overpowers Williams defensively? Brotha, put that in a poll and make it so you can see who voted....I guarantee it will be you vs however many others vote. Where in the world did you get the idea that Williams was even average defensively as a left fielder let alone better than Cobb?

    One of the most overrated in history? You joking right? Cobb was a frieking beast through and through and there was always an angle to compensate for weakness as he aged. One of the most cerebral athletes regardless the sport imo
    GoslinFan
    Registered User
    Last edited by GoslinFan; 01-10-2022, 12:53 AM.

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