Announcement

Collapse

Updated Baseball Fever Policy

Baseball Fever Policy

I. Purpose of this announcement:

This announcement describes the policies pertaining to the operation of Baseball Fever.

Baseball Fever is a moderated baseball message board which encourages and facilitates research and information exchange among fans of our national pastime. The intent of the Baseball Fever Policy is to ensure that Baseball Fever remains an extremely high quality, extremely low "noise" environment.

Baseball Fever is administrated by three principal administrators:
webmaster - Baseball Fever Owner
The Commissioner - Baseball Fever Administrator
Macker - Baseball Fever Administrator

And a group of forum specific super moderators. The role of the moderator is to keep Baseball Fever smoothly and to screen posts for compliance with our policy. The moderators are ALL volunteer positions, so please be patient and understanding of any delays you might experience in correspondence.

II. Comments about our policy:

Any suggestions on this policy may be made directly to the webmaster.

III. Acknowledgments:

This document was based on a similar policy used by SABR.

IV. Requirements for participation on Baseball Fever:

Participation on Baseball Fever is available to all baseball fans with a valid email address, as verified by the forum's automated system, which then in turn creates a single validated account. Multiple accounts by a single user are prohibited.

By registering, you agree to adhere to the policies outlined in this document and to conduct yourself accordingly. Abuse of the forum, by repeated failure to abide by these policies, will result in your access being blocked to the forum entirely.

V. Baseball Fever Netiquette:

Participants at Baseball Fever are required to adhere to these principles, which are outlined in this section.
a. All posts to Baseball Fever should be written in clear, concise English, with proper grammar and accurate spelling. The use of abbreviations should be kept to a minimum; when abbreviation is necessary, they should be either well-known (such as etc.), or explained on their first use in your post.

b. Conciseness is a key attribute of a good post.

c. Quote only the portion of a post to which you are responding.

d. Standard capitalization and punctuation make a large difference in the readability of a post. TYPING IN ALL CAPITALS is considered to be "shouting"; it is a good practice to limit use of all capitals to words which you wish to emphasize.

e. It is our policy NOT to transmit any defamatory or illegal materials.

f. Personal attacks of any type against Baseball Fever readers will not be tolerated. In these instances the post will be copied by a moderator and/or administrator, deleted from the site, then sent to the member who made the personal attack via a Private Message (PM) along with a single warning. Members who choose to not listen and continue personal attacks will be banned from the site.

g. It is important to remember that many contextual clues available in face-to-face discussion, such as tone of voice and facial expression, are lost in the electronic forum. As a poster, try to be alert for phrasing that might be misinterpreted by your audience to be offensive; as a reader, remember to give the benefit of the doubt and not to take umbrage too easily. There are many instances in which a particular choice of words or phrasing can come across as being a personal attack where none was intended.

h. The netiquette described above (a-g) often uses the term "posts", but applies equally to Private Messages.

VI. Baseball Fever User Signature Policy

A signature is a piece of text that some members may care to have inserted at the end of ALL of their posts, a little like the closing of a letter. You can set and / or change your signature by editing your profile in the UserCP. Since it is visible on ALL your posts, the following policy must be adhered to:

Signature Composition
Font size limit: No larger than size 2 (This policy is a size 2)
Style: Bold and italics are permissible
Character limit: No more than 500 total characters
Lines: No more than 4 lines
Colors: Most colors are permissible, but those which are hard to discern against the gray background (yellow, white, pale gray) should be avoided
Images/Graphics: Allowed, but nothing larger than 20k and Content rules must be followed

Signature Content
No advertising is permitted
Nothing political or religious
Nothing obscene, vulgar, defamatory or derogatory
Links to personal blogs/websites are permissible - with the webmaster's written consent
A Link to your Baseball Fever Blog does not require written consent and is recommended
Quotes must be attributed. Non-baseball quotes are permissible as long as they are not religious or political

Please adhere to these rules when you create your signature. Failure to do so will result in a request to comply by a moderator. If you do not comply within a reasonable amount of time, the signature will be removed and / or edited by an Administrator. Baseball Fever reserves the right to edit and / or remove any or all of your signature line at any time without contacting the account holder.

VII. Appropriate and inappropriate topics for Baseball Fever:

Most concisely, the test for whether a post is appropriate for Baseball Fever is: "Does this message discuss our national pastime in an interesting manner?" This post can be direct or indirect: posing a question, asking for assistance, providing raw data or citations, or discussing and constructively critiquing existing posts. In general, a broad interpretation of "baseball related" is used.

Baseball Fever is not a promotional environment. Advertising of products, web sites, etc., whether for profit or not-for-profit, is not permitted. At the webmaster's discretion, brief one-time announcements for products or services of legitimate baseball interest and usefulness may be allowed. If advertising is posted to the site it will be copied by a moderator and/or administrator, deleted from the site, then sent to the member who made the post via a Private Message (PM) along with a single warning. Members who choose to not listen and continue advertising will be banned from the site. If the advertising is spam-related, pornography-based, or a "visit-my-site" type post / private message, no warning at all will be provided, and the member will be banned immediately without a warning.

It is considered appropriate to post a URL to a page which specifically and directly answers a question posted on the list (for example, it would be permissible to post a link to a page containing home-road splits, even on a site which has advertising or other commercial content; however, it would not be appropriate to post the URL of the main page of the site). The site reserves the right to limit the frequency of such announcements by any individual or group.

In keeping with our test for a proper topic, posting to Baseball Fever should be treated as if you truly do care. This includes posting information that is, to the best of your knowledge, complete and accurate at the time you post. Any errors or ambiguities you catch later should be acknowledged and corrected in the thread, since Baseball Fever is sometimes considered to be a valuable reference for research information.

VIII. Role of the moderator:

When a post is submitted to Baseball Fever, it is forwarded by the server automatically and seen immediately. The moderator may:
a. Leave the thread exactly like it was submitted. This is the case 95% of the time.

b. Immediately delete the thread as inappropriate for Baseball Fever. Examples include advertising, personal attacks, or spam. This is the case 1% of the time.

c. Move the thread. If a member makes a post about the Marlins in the Yankees forum it will be moved to the appropriate forum. This is the case 3% of the time.

d. Edit the message due to an inappropriate item. This is the case 1% of the time. There have been new users who will make a wonderful post, then add to their signature line (where your name / handle appears) a tagline that is a pure advertisement. This tagline will be removed, a note will be left in the message so he/she is aware of the edit, and personal contact will be made to the poster telling them what has been edited and what actions need to be taken to prevent further edits.

The moderators perform no checks on posts to verify factual or logical accuracy. While he/she may point out gross errors in factual data in replies to the thread, the moderator does not act as an "accuracy" editor. Also moderation is not a vehicle for censorship of individuals and/or opinions, and the moderator's decisions should not be taken personally.

IX. Legal aspects of participation in Baseball Fever:

By submitting a post to Baseball Fever, you grant Baseball Fever permission to distribute your message to the forum. Other rights pertaining to the post remain with the ORIGINAL author, and you may not redistribute or retransmit any posts by any others, in whole or in part, without the express consent of the original author.

The messages appearing on Baseball Fever contain the opinions and views of their respective authors and are not necessarily those of Baseball Fever, or of the Baseball Almanac family of sites.

Sincerely,

Sean Holtz, Webmaster of Baseball Almanac & Baseball Fever
www.baseball-almanac.com | www.baseball-fever.com
"Baseball Almanac: Sharing Baseball. Sharing History."
See more
See less

Best Pitchers Never To Have Won A Cy Young Award

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Best Pitchers Never To Have Won A Cy Young Award

    Obviously of those eligible to have won one (no, Satchel Paige and Bob Feller DO NOT COUNT as I realize they are probably the greatest of the pre 1956 hurlers to have pitched in the majors afterward, without gaining a CY Young award)

    In case you are wondering, the following are HOFers, whom fall into this category, and never won the award;

    Robin Roberts
    Juan Marichal
    Hoyt Wilhelm
    Jim Bunning
    Phil Niekro
    Don Sutton
    Nolan Ryan
    Rich Gossage

    Also in the mix should be perpetual "Why isn't he in the Hall yet" guys;

    Jim Kaat
    Bert Blyleven
    Tommy John
    Jack Morris
    Lee Smith

    I believe that's it for the guys that are still on the ballot. I'm surprised Dave Stewart didn't get enough support to belong with that list.

    Guys still active today that could deserve consideration for the title;

    Trevor Hoffman
    Mariano Rivera

    Okay, Rivera is going into the Hall, but I'd argue about Hoffman's status as a future no doubt HOFer.

    Other than those two, no one active who has never won a Cy strikes me as being involved in "should he go into the Hall" debates. Either they are too long in the tooth (Moyer), haven't done enough in their careers (Oswalt), or just had one or two years of "best pitcher in the game" discussions about them (Hudson, Mulder, Pettitte, etc).

    All things considered, my top three is Marichal, Rivera and Gossage.
    NY Sports Day Independent Gotham Sports Coverage
    Mets360 Mets Past, Present and Future
    Talking Mets Baseball. A baseball blog with a Mets bias

  • #2
    Don't forget about Mussina, K. Brown, and Schilling.
    1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

    1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

    1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


    The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
    The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

    Comment


    • #3
      Right, forgot about the "still waiting to get on the ballot guys"
      NY Sports Day Independent Gotham Sports Coverage
      Mets360 Mets Past, Present and Future
      Talking Mets Baseball. A baseball blog with a Mets bias

      Comment


      • #4
        1. Mariano Rivera
        2. Nolan Ryan
        3. Hoyt Wilhelm
        4. Phil Niekro
        5. Robin Roberts
        6. Curt Schilling
        7. Mike Mussina
        8. Bert Blyleven
        9. Trevor Hoffman
        10. Juan Marichal
        11. Don Sutton
        12. Goose Gossage
        13. Jim Bunning
        14. Lee Smith
        15. Billy Wagner
        16. John Franco
        17. Kevin Brown
        18. Bob Lemon
        19. Billy Pierce
        20. Dan Quisenberry
        21. Tom Henke
        22. Tommy John
        23. Tom Gordon
        24. John Wetteland
        25. Kent Tekulve
        26. Lindy McDaniel
        27. Jeff Reardon
        28. Joe Nathan
        29. Jack Morris
        30. Luis Tiant
        31. Doug Jones
        32. Ellis Kinder
        33. Roberto Hernandez
        34. Rick Aguilera
        35. Stu Miller
        36. Jim Kaat
        37. Tug McGraw
        38. Robb Nen
        39. Randy Myers
        40. Dave Righetti

        Comment


        • #5
          I'd insert Jerry Koosman into that list, between Marichal and Sutton. He certainly deserved to win the Cy Young award in 1976 instead of Randy Jones.
          sigpic Please check out my book, Mets Fan
          Please check out my blog, Mets Fan Blog
          Read about my new book The Last Days of Shea

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by dgarza View Post
            9. Trevor Hoffman
            10. Juan Marichal

            14. Lee Smith
            15. Billy Wagner
            16. John Franco
            17. Kevin Brown

            21. Tom Henke
            22. Tommy John
            23. Tom Gordon
            24. John Wetteland
            25. Kent Tekulve
            26. Lindy McDaniel
            27. Jeff Reardon
            28. Joe Nathan
            30. Luis Tiant

            31. Doug Jones
            32. Ellis Kinder
            33. Roberto Hernandez
            34. Rick Aguilera
            35. Stu Miller
            36. Jim Kaat
            Love those relievers, don't ya.
            1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

            1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

            1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


            The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
            The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

            Comment


            • #7
              Mariano rivera

              Comment


              • #8
                Where is that list from? How is Niekro better than Marichal? Really?
                NY Sports Day Independent Gotham Sports Coverage
                Mets360 Mets Past, Present and Future
                Talking Mets Baseball. A baseball blog with a Mets bias

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by SteveJRogers View Post
                  Where is that list from? How is Niekro better than Marichal? Really?
                  Not at there very best, but Niekro did throw to almost 9,000 more batters (we'll call that 1 Sandy Koufax career total), without a massive drop in ERA+ (123 to 115). Niekro also had terrible defenses behind him, which is dragging down his ERA+ about 3 points.

                  Marichal was definitely better in his prime and I would definitely rather have him in any one big game I wanted to win, but there is no doubt that Niekro has a big career value advantage. Depends on what floats your boat.

                  Marichal WAR - 63
                  Niekro WAR - 94
                  1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                  1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                  1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                  The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                  The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by STLCards2 View Post
                    Not at there very best, but Niekro did throw to almost 9,000 more batters (we'll call that 1 Sandy Koufax career total), without a massive drop in ERA+ (123 to 115).
                    Career value does halp Niekro a lot.

                    Also, Marichal threw roughly 3500 IPs. If we take Neikro's career up to 3500-something innings, I believe their ERA+ are nearly identical.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by dgarza View Post
                      Career value does halp Niekro a lot.

                      Also, Marichal threw roughly 3500 IPs. If we take Neikro's career up to 3500-something innings, I believe their ERA+ are nearly identical.
                      Well, if we assume a normal ERA+ deterioration for Marichal, he would be at about a 108 ERA+ at 5,500 IP (I estimate around a 7-8 point ERA+ drop for every 1,000 IP after 3,000).

                      Of course the projected and the assumed don't always happen in reality.

                      I used BF instead of IP since it is more accurate - 1 IP in 1910 is not the same a 1 IP in 2000. BF vs. BF is closer. I guess PT would be the closest of all.
                      1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                      1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                      1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                      The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                      The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Since this is not so much a career stat as a question of peak performance(s), I'd say that, although they don't necessarily belong at the top of the list... both Dave Stieb and Steve Rogers should be included in the discussion.
                        "(Van) Mungo and I get along fine. I just tell him I won't stand for no nonsense, and then I duck."
                        Casey Stengel

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Eastvanmungo View Post
                          Since this is not so much a career stat as a question of peak performance(s), I'd say that, although they don't necessarily belong at the top of the list... both Dave Stieb and Steve Rogers should be included in the discussion.
                          If we are looking at peak, Kevin Brown is the only pitcher with a "qualifing" seasonal ERA+ over 200 to have not won a CY.

                          Kevin Brown - 1996 - ERA+ 216
                          Wilbur Wood - 1971 - ERA+ 188
                          Luis Tiant - 1968 - ERA+ 186
                          John Tudor - 1985 - ERA+ 184
                          Joe Horlen - 1964 - ERA+ 183
                          Jason Schmidt - 2003 - ERA+ 179
                          Kevin Appier - 1993 - ERA+ 179
                          Mark Prior - 2002 - ERA+ 178
                          Andy Pettitte - 2005 - ERA+ 177
                          Derek Lowe - 2002 - ERA+ 177

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by STLCards2 View Post
                            Love those relievers, don't ya.
                            That really shows how so many of the top starting pitchers of the Cy Young era have won the award.

                            I'd take Marichal overall. Who beat out Brown for the CYA in 1996? Even before I knew much about advanced metrics, he was clearly my choice that year.
                            Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                            Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                            Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                            Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                            Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SteveJRogers View Post
                              Obviously of those eligible to have won one (no, Satchel Paige and Bob Feller DO NOT COUNT as I realize they are probably the greatest of the pre 1956 hurlers to have pitched in the majors afterward, without gaining a CY Young award)

                              In case you are wondering, the following are HOFers, whom fall into this category, and never won the award;

                              Robin Roberts
                              Roberts probably shouldn't count as well, since he was basically a pre-56 pitcher. He'd have likely won a couple of Cy Youngs if the award had existed during the early part of the 50's.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X