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  • --I think I'm ready to officially move Willie Mays over Babe Ruth on my personal rankings. I could see the argument for Wagner, Cobb and Williams as well (and Bonds if not for the cloud over his last 4 seasons).
    1) Mays
    2) Ruth
    3) Wagner
    4) Cobb
    5) Williams
    6) Aaron
    7) Schmidt
    8) Mantle
    9) Musial
    10) Gehrig
    11) Bonds*
    12) Speaker
    13) Bench
    14) Morgan
    15) Collins
    16) Hornsby
    17) Dimaggio
    ---Charleston?
    18) Berra
    19) F.Robinson
    20) Lajoie

    Comment


    • Originally posted by leecemark
      --I think I'm ready to officially move Willie Mays over Babe Ruth on my personal rankings. I could see the argument for Wagner, Cobb and Williams as well (and Bonds if not for the cloud over his last 4 seasons).
      1) Mays
      2) Ruth
      3) Wagner
      4) Cobb
      5) Williams
      6) Aaron
      7) Schmidt
      8) Mantle
      9) Musial
      10) Gehrig
      11) Bonds*
      12) Speaker
      13) Bench
      14) Morgan
      15) Collins
      16) Hornsby
      17) Dimaggio
      ---Charleston?
      18) Berra
      19) F.Robinson
      20) Lajoie
      Commendable, Mark. You're a man of your word. I may move Mays up, as well. Certainly ahead of Wagner..... :noidea

      Are you ranking Bonds on what he did pre 2001? Seems pretty logical.

      Comment


      • Trying to judge the greatest player who ever lived is like trying to tell who's faster, Maurice Green or Timothy Montgomery - but without a stopwatch.

        Green runs the 100 meter dash in what.... 9.81 seconds? Montgomery in what.... 9.78? The difference is so fine..... as it should be when we reach that extreme a level of human performance. These guys are at the outer limits of what human physiology can do, there should really only be a less than 1% difference between them.

        I expect that a similar situation exists with the best ball players of all time. The problem is that we don't have an objective stopwatch to make measurements. We have a variety of statistics to sort through. We have a myriad of mitigating factors for literally everyone's stats that need to be dealt with and accomodated for and factored in. If we saw Timothy Montgomery running through a swamp without a stopwatch and saw a shoeless Maurice Green running up a 45 degree hill without a stopwatch, how would we know who's faster? We have no measurement, and on top of that, even if we did, we have to try to figure out if running under uphill conditions with no shoes is harder than running through a swamp.

        That's the situation that exists when sorting through mitigating factors like quality of competition in the league, the "timing" factors that result in varying windows of opportunity, steroids, and a thousand other factors that we could discuss. One thing that I believe is that after a proper adjustment for every factor, the best should all be very tightly matched with each other. I also believe that out of the top, say, 25 best, proportionately more should be found after 1950, due to the larger pool from which to cultivate talent and the improved methods for identifying that talent. That doesn't mean that Cobb and Ruth don't crack my top ten, just that I think that more top ten-ers should be from more modern eras. So when I list my top ten, I say "in no particular order...." and let 'em go.

        I guess I was too harsh with flat out cutting off anybody who played before 1950. I guess I'm always going to be biased towards those who played in modern eras. We all have our personal biases, I guess.
        Last edited by Metal Ed; 02-24-2005, 05:23 PM.

        Comment


        • --I'm not sure exactly what to do with Bonds. If I pretend he didn't play after 2000 then he probably wouldn't make my top 20. If I credit him with a normal decline he would, but either right in front of or right behind Frank Robinson. If I credit him as being one of the better old player, but not with his full numbers, he ends up about where I have him on thsi list. If I take his post 2000 numbers at face value he is in the top 5 and it wouldn't be unreasonable to argue for him at #1 (I wouldn't, but it could be done).

          Comment


          • Originally posted by leecemark
            --I think I'm ready to officially move Willie Mays over Babe Ruth on my personal rankings. I could see the argument for Wagner, Cobb and Williams as well (and Bonds if not for the cloud over his last 4 seasons).
            1) Mays
            2) Ruth
            3) Wagner
            4) Cobb
            5) Williams
            6) Aaron
            7) Schmidt
            8) Mantle
            9) Musial
            10) Gehrig
            11) Bonds*
            12) Speaker
            13) Bench
            14) Morgan
            15) Collins
            16) Hornsby
            17) Dimaggio
            ---Charleston?
            18) Berra
            19) F.Robinson
            20) Lajoie
            Might be the most interesting Top 20 list I have ever seen. Musial,Mantle,and Gehrig behind Schmidt. Wow, that has this old timer stunned to say the least. But the poster probably didn't have the luxury of seeing most of his own list play.
            Mickey Mantle 1956 Triple Crown Winner

            Comment


            • Could anyone but Babe pitch?

              For all the so-called rivals to Babe (Cobb, Bonds, etc.,etc.) -- HOW WELL COULD THEY PITCH? A team of 9 Babes hammers a team of any other 9 position players because no one on the other team could remotely equal Babe's pitching. Babe's outstanding pitching as well as hitting raises him above ANYONE else.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Metal Ed
                Some random thoughts spurred on by Bill's last post.....


                1) Intuitive approach vs. Statistics. Hmm. Well, we can never watch all the games, so we need the stats to tell us what happened when we weren't watching. If we can't trust the stats, who can we trust?


                12) This place is pretty cool. I think I'll stick around for a while.
                Truly outstanding work, Ed- all of your posts are seminal here. Are you an author?

                Bill Burgess- send him your files- he hasn't heard the whole story yet.

                Comment


                • Mark,

                  ******************The Wild Side ******************************


                  May I extend to you an official welcome to the Underworld of Outcasts and Shadows in exile. How does it feel to be an official Heretic. May the lost safety of Mainstream leave you soon and you feel settled in to the Official Minority Colony of Lepers and Minority Dissenters. Welcome Home, partner.

                  King of the Lepers

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by LF Riedman
                    For all the so-called rivals to Babe (Cobb, Bonds, etc.,etc.) -- HOW WELL COULD THEY PITCH? A team of 9 Babes hammers a team of any other 9 position players because no one on the other team could remotely equal Babe's pitching. Babe's outstanding pitching as well as hitting raises him above ANYONE else.
                    And so Brooks Kieschnick weighs in on the debate.

                    Rick Ankiel is the greatest Cardinal ever! No pitcher can outhit him and no hitter can outpitch him!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by therealnod
                      And so Brooks Kieschnick weighs in on the debate.

                      Rick Ankiel is the greatest Cardinal ever! No pitcher can outhit him and no hitter can outpitch him!
                      Joe Wood & John Monte Ward might have something to say. But there's a LOT of guys who can outpitch Ankiel
                      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                      Comment


                      • Please... pitching back then is A LOT different than it is now... They'd probably tee off on Ruth, and Ruth probably wouldnt do aswell as he did back then against pitchers now... You cant compare them really because the game has evolved so much

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                          But there's a LOT of guys who can outpitch Ankiel
                          You trying to start trouble, RMB?

                          Ankiel is simmering with potential. Hopefully he can put it together as soon as this year.

                          Comment


                          • --Yankee7, I was able to see 4 of my top 10 and 8 of my top 20 play. Admittedly, Mantle was literally on his last legs and Mays was no longer one of the best by the time I saw them. However, I doubt there are many at BBF who actually saw Gehrig, even less Ruth and Cobb, probably none Wagner or Cobb when he was still dominanting the game. Its a pretty distinct minorty who even saw Williams or Musial, at least when they were still at the top of their games. Quite a few of our members never even saw Schmidt or only caught the end of his run.
                            --All we can do is look at the records, read the accounts and make our best judgement (Metal Ed is correct when he says it is impossible to rank with any precision). I could easily be wrong, but it will be more fun arguing for Mays than staying on the Babe Ruth bandwagon. As for Schmidt, he was easily the best player I've seen (Aaron was still amoung the best, but not as good as Schmidt when I saw him). The only player I've seen play much who I might rate ahead of him is Bonds, if his best years weren't tarnished, or A-Rod. Rodriguez hasn't been doing it quite long enough to crack my top 20 (although he is in the top 25). If I slightly overrate a hero from my youth, I hope it won't be held against me too much.

                            Comment


                            • Thanks for all the kind words, guys. It's good posting here.

                              Leece - the only real writing experience I have is from writing my thesis. Not baseball related.

                              I don't know about "seminal". Whenever I get the feeling that I've thought of something new, I read where somebody else already thought of it.

                              Bill......what about these files?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by [email protected]
                                Mark,

                                ******************The Wild Side ******************************


                                May I extend to you an official welcome to the Underworld of Outcasts and Shadows in exile. How does it feel to be an official Heretic. May the lost safety of Mainstream leave you soon and you feel settled in to the Official Minority Colony of Lepers and Minority Dissenters. Welcome Home, partner.

                                King of the Lepers
                                Bill you make it sound so negative. I enjoy the ridicule I get for defending Cobb, Cochrane, Collins, and Sisler.

                                EDIT: And of course Maddux against the Clemens philistines.
                                "I will calmly wait for my induction to the Baseball Hall of Fame."
                                - Sammy Sosa

                                "Get a comfy chair, Sammy, cause its gonna be a long wait."
                                - Craig Ashley (AKA Windy City Fan)

                                Comment

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