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Better Than the Babe

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  • Originally posted by ElHalo
    I think Ruth might be stretching things. I often think of Gibson as about equal offensively to Foxx or Mantle. Which still makes him one of the greatest players of all time, and easily the greatest catcher. It puzzles me how people call Charleston better... if you take Mickey Mantle's bat and attach it to an even halfway decent defensive C... well, how do you really do better than that?
    Just for the record, my top position players would probably go something like this:

    1) Ruth
    2) Cobb
    3) Mays
    4) Wagner
    5) Bonds
    6) Williams
    7) Gibson
    8) Mantle
    9) Aaron
    10) Hornsby

    Just a rough list. As far as hitting goes, I would have Gibson ranked only below Ruth and Williams, with Cobb fourth. Keep in mind that the purpose of this exercise was to try to construct an argument against Ruth even if we didn't fully believe it.

    At the same time, I am keeping an open mind. I find it entirely possibly that Gibson was the best hitter of all time. I think that a lot of people here though are so convinced that Ruth should be the standard for hitting, their entire view of the history of baseball would be destroyed by the mere thought that Gibson was the greatest hitter of all time. At the very least, I would like Gibson to be known as the greatest catcher of all time- I think that the one position with the greatest gap between the best of all time and the second best of all time (along with perhaps Honus Wagner at shortstop.)

    Mark

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    • --Except I don't think it was an affectation with Ruth. I think he was developmentally challenged. An idiot savant of baseball .

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      • Originally posted by leecemark
        --Except I don't think it was an affectation with Ruth. I think he was developmentally challenged. An idiot savant of baseball .
        I completely agree with you, and I don't know what that should do to my opinion of him.
        "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

        Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

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        • --I haven't called anybody a retard since grade school. I have done plenty of reading on the Babe and my conclusion is that he had some serious developmental issues. The man had virtually no regard for social conventions or impulse control. That is not a normally functioning adult. Besides on the rare occasions when El Halo and I agree on something it pretty much has to be true .

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          • Originally posted by leecemark
            --I haven't called anybody a retard since grade school. I have done plenty of reading on the Babe and my conclusion is that he had some serious developmental issues. The man had virtually no regard for social conventions or impulse control. That is not a normally functioning adult. Besides on the rare occasions when El Halo and I agree on something it pretty much has to be true .
            lol, hardly.

            He wasn't socially proper at all times, and he said things that might be crude to certain people. His "developmental" issues stem back to his "being locked inside a cage," and being let out mentality. Think about how long he was told what he could do, when he could do it, how much he could have, what he could say, where he could go....and then BOOM, he's out. He's making more money than he can spend, he's seeing parts of the country he'd never seen before. Hell, the first time he was on a train was on his way to the Baltimore team. Everything fascinated him, elevators, cars, women, it was all new and he looked at the world as one big playground. Who among us doesn't want to live that uninhibited lifestyle. Nah, he was far from a retard, in fact he was much smarter than people, apparently including yourself, give him credit for.
            Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 03-20-2006, 10:54 PM.

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            • --He said things that every civilized person would find crude and he never outgrew enjoying his freedom from StMarys, which most people would have after a few years. The Babe was just an overgrown child right up to the end of his days. A rough childhood doesn't get you a lifetime pass to act like one.
              --Don't get me wrong, he was a likeable child, but he was never fully functional . You said yourself, only minutes ago, that he rarely had a serious thought in his head. On that we can agree.

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              • Originally posted by leecemark
                --He said things that every civilized person would find crude and he never outgrew enjoying his freedom from StMarys, which most people would have after a few years. The Babe was just an overgrown child right up to the end of his days. A rough childhood doesn't get you a lifetime pass to act like one.
                --Don't get me wrong, he was a likeable child, but he was never fully functional . You said yourself, only minutes ago, that he rarely had a serious thought in his head. On that we can agree.
                I fail to see how being extremely uninhibited and enjoying life to the fullest, constitutes a retard label. I could type out a story about him having a couple over to his apartment. He showed them around and pointed out a trophy he won in a farting contest, and told stories that were a bit "colorful." The lady wasn't offended at all, she found Babe to be very interesting. You'd be surprised how much people appreciate a genuine person who is honest. Enough about that though, it's just one of many "reasons" you gave for moving Babe down, which is fine. Another bunk in the Babe camp just opened up. No worries.


                How bout a case for DiMaggio?

                What if we give him back '43, '44, and '45 and insert his career averages and give him a slight boost; maybe 5% or whatever because it was in his prime. We could also give '46 a slight increase from what it was, because he was a bit rusty when he came back.

                We could also add on another 3 years of decline to end of his career, and give his entire career a slight era adjustment.

                So if we do all that, and consider that he was a righty hitting against mostly righties, and put him in a better HR park, his numbers would be pretty dang impressive. He gets the nod defensively because of ability and because of a more valuable position. His arm wasn't as good as Babe's, but that doesn't count so much as a negative when you're in centerfield. His arm was strong enough to pass. Baserunning is a wash, and they both have championships.

                DiMaggio's incredible strikeout/HR total has got to say something.

                Any thoughts?
                Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 03-20-2006, 11:29 PM.

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                • The gibson numbers have been posted on the Gibson/OH thread-Gibbie has fewer thqan 3,000 NL ABs to work with--in those his HRs come out to 43/550, or 37 per 162--really good but not near Babe on many fewer ABS. At peak, Foxx etc, had similar numbers to 43/550

                  Gibson/Oh Thread: http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38028
                  Last edited by Bill Burgess; 03-21-2006, 06:38 AM.

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                  • Originally posted by leecemark
                    --Don't get me wrong, he was a likeable child, but he was never fully functional . You said yourself, only minutes ago, that he rarely had a serious thought in his head. On that we can agree.
                    Is that a sign of some sort of mental deficiency, because you just don't give a damn about world events. Maybe a bit in the minority but hardly cause to question anyone's mental capability or intelligence level.
                    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 03-21-2006, 06:36 AM.

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                    • How bout a case for DiMaggio?

                      What if we give him back '43, '44, and '45 and insert his career averages and give him a slight boost; maybe 5% or whatever because it was in his prime. We could also give '46 a slight increase from what it was, because he was a bit rusty when he came back.

                      We could also add on another 3 years of decline to end of his career, and give his entire career a slight era adjustment.

                      So if we do all that, and consider that he was a righty hitting against mostly righties, and put him in a better HR park, his numbers would be pretty dang impressive. He gets the nod defensively because of ability and because of a more valuable position. His arm wasn't as good as Babe's, but that doesn't count so much as a negative when you're in centerfield. His arm was strong enough to pass. Baserunning is a wash, and they both have championships.

                      DiMaggio's incredible strikeout/HR total has got to say something.

                      Any thoughts?[/QUOTE]

                      If we're doing that, we'd have to make a case for Ruth playing OF full time before 1919--we can't only what if one half of the equation.

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                      • Originally posted by leecemark
                        --He said things that every civilized person would find crude and he never outgrew enjoying his freedom from StMarys, which most people would have after a few years. The Babe was just an overgrown child right up to the end of his days. A rough childhood doesn't get you a lifetime pass to act like one.
                        --Don't get me wrong, he was a likeable child, but he was never fully functional . You said yourself, only minutes ago, that he rarely had a serious thought in his head. On that we can agree.
                        That didn't seem to bother those that new him well, were in his company, teammates and players from other teams. Maybe if one were to know him in those times instead of looking back on him as you are you might place a higher value on him. Rare that any who speak of him, who had contact or knew him came away not liking him.

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                        • Originally posted by leecemark.
                          --Ruth's forgetting his teammates names is, in and of itself, unimportant. However, the fact that he couldn't even be troubled to learn the names of men he had played beside [B
                          for year after year [/B]suggests he wasn't particularly concerned about being a good teammate. .
                          Now we're getting a little silly. Because he couldn't be troubled to learn the names of men he played beside ( your words) suggests he wasn't concerned about being a good teammate. How did you determine that. How do you know that he was not concerned about his teammates. They didn't view him that way, they often spoke of how much they cared about him and what it meant to take the field knowing he was one of them.

                          Please lets not play Dr. Phil ( what a phony he is) and explore the inner workings of the mind of another and expect any to believe that can be done.

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                          • --I've said in virtually every post that people liked the Babe. Arguing that people did is not proof that he was an intelligent or even normally functioning person. Ruth didn't do things out of malice, he just didn't know any better.
                            --What we have he is a man who had as much natural talent as anybody who ever lived and who did things no one had ever done before on the ballfiield. He also did all kinds of amazing and amusing things off the field. Naturally his teammates and everyone who encountered him has lots of stories to tell (and telling Ruth stories made them the center of attention later). Many Ruth stories are the kind which may well have irritated or even enraged people when they happened, but got funny after the fact, much like parents are able to laugh at childhood misdeeds in retrspect.
                            --When I was younger I was very impressed by the Babe's uncontrolled appetite for booze and women and his general lack of regard for what anyone else thought of his actions. I am less impressed now. His lack of self control and awareness that others (as well as himself) were negatively affected by it just gets sad as I get older (and particularly since he never grew out of it).
                            P.S. Sultan, you must be unaware of this since you keep throwing the word around but retard is a derogatory and offensive term. Please stop attributing it to me, as I have never used it as a description of Ruth or anyone else.
                            Last edited by leecemark; 03-21-2006, 05:53 AM.

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                            • Originally posted by leecemark
                              --Except I don't think it was an affectation with Ruth. I think he was developmentally challenged. An idiot savant of baseball .
                              But if even Rube Waddell could remember his team mates names, and we have no indications to the contrary, . . .

                              Comment


                              • Babe did have some issues. Randy's not denying that. I think he's objecting to Babe's issues reaching the clinical level.

                                Babe himself admitted, and so did Claire in her book, that Babe had trouble remembering people's names. I personally think that was merely laziness, and not an inability. Could be wrong.

                                But Babe did remember what players could do on a field, even if he could remember their names.

                                There are many issues one could have in development that are not clinical. Impulse Control, Knowing and acknowledging borders/boundaries of others, accepting socially acceptable behavior, etc. Dr. Phil. (McGraw) discusses this stuff all the time. So does Oprah.

                                Babe did pull some boners. Once when with the King of Sweden, he said something like, "Asparagus gives me gas!". When chided later, he said, "Hell, I didn't say FART, did I?!"

                                It was stuff like that that he was known for, and most cut him slack, realizing that he was not the most sophisticated person in the room. But most have some issues like that, including me and most here on Fever. Most of us think we're cute, or amusing when we puncture a border or two. Others might not, depending on how much slack they're willing to cut us. But we don't go around seeing how much slack the world will cut us, cuz we already know, it won't be as much as we want.

                                Bill

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