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Better Than the Babe

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  • santotohof
    replied
    Originally posted by Astro
    Please... pitching back then is A LOT different than it is now... They'd probably tee off on Ruth, and Ruth probably wouldnt do aswell as he did back then against pitchers now... You cant compare them really because the game has evolved so much
    What? I guess Ruth and Mathewsen and Johnson would get hammered today. I don't buy that. Good pitching is good pitching and Ruth held the World Series scoreless inning record for 45 that's 45 years

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  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    I searched by putting in your name and Babe Ruth and nothing came up. But I remember you saying it. OK, your name is off the list of those believing Ruth was the Greatest Player Ever.

    Congrats. First Mark, now you. Things are really opening up here. This is good news.

    Bill Burgess

    Leave a comment:


  • RuthMayBond
    replied
    Originally posted by [email protected]
    Jeffrey,

    You have often asserted your opinion that Ruth was the greatest. I can find it if you deny it. Do you deny asserting that you have said that you felt that Babe Ruth was the greatest player? Yes or no.

    If you have changed your mind, I will remove you from the Babe's list of supporters. I would also like to see your top 10 players. If you have one yet.


    Bill Burgess
    'd like you to find it. As I *have* said before, I'm comfortable ranking within position, but haven't even begun any kind of a list including all positions (and especially not mixing in pitchers with it)

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Jeffrey,

    You have often asserted your opinion that Ruth was the greatest. I can find it if you deny it. Do you deny asserting that you have said that you felt that Babe Ruth was the greatest player? Yes or no.

    If you have changed your mind, I will remove you from the Babe's list of supporters. I would also like to see your top 10 players. If you have one yet.


    Bill Burgess

    Leave a comment:


  • RuthMayBond
    replied
    Originally posted by [email protected]
    Babe list: 26 members

    RuthMayBonds
    When did I say this? Comparing Babe & Ty is somewhat like comparing apples & oranges.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Brian,

    I collect many things. Fever members all time teams, and certain opinions. Would it be incorrect to say that Cobb is your greatest, best player? If so, I'll add you to the Cobb list. I also document the Babe list.

    So far, here what the lists look like.

    Ty list: 25 members

    Bill Burgess--BR-4
    Chris--BR-3
    2Chance
    fryj?
    kelo80
    Eddie Collins--TC-1, BR-2
    Sandman
    Tearforamariner
    Zito75
    mpacy
    blighty baseball bloke
    TXRangerfan
    George Steinbrenner
    Luke Appling
    Chad
    Brad Harris--BR-2
    Murph8283
    Dizzy (HS in '04)
    LouGehrig--BR2
    Prof93--BR-2
    Tibber; TC over BR
    Impotato---
    Dudecar00--Mays, Cobb, Ruth
    Windy City Fan
    William Lee


    Babe list: 26 members

    ElHalo--------TC-2, Mays-3, Wag-4
    four tool player--TC2
    Zeth------TC-2
    Julusnc--TC-2
    Catfish--TC-2
    Edgartohof--TC-2
    TheOnlyRyan -TC-2
    ShoelessJoe3
    wrgptfan------Ruth, Williams, TC-3
    BoSoxRule----TW-1, BR-2, TC--3
    abacab---TC-3
    MikeCameron--TC-4
    Baseball Guru---TC-5
    BillyF29------TC-5
    Metsfan11--TC-6
    Mac195---TC-7
    depstein
    westsidegrounds
    Chisox73
    Dayton Dog
    froshman2002
    BABBMALLEY29--My.7,1939
    bluezebra
    Roy Hobbs
    Santotohof
    WLH99raiders--
    RuthMayBonds

    The Babe list just lost a member, with Mark Leece's defection to the Mays camp. So, if you join the Cobb camp, you will even up the score again. Actually, I've fudged the count by 2. Tibber and Dudecar rate over over Ruth, but someone else over both.

    Actually, I have no illusions that this list is truly accurate. I assume that the great majority of Fever's unaccounted for members are solidly in Babe's camp. But it's delightful to pretend.



    Bill Burgess
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 02-25-2005, 07:31 PM.

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  • Brian2944
    replied
    Originally posted by Metal Ed
    Bill, with your speech on smarts, you've convinced me that I need to rank Johnny Bench higher than I currently do.

    Brian, interesting comments about Mantle. I've long thought that Mantle had as much raw talent as anybody who ever lived. He could've been the greatest player who ever lived, "if only...."

    "If only." If only what? If only he wasn't injured all the time? That was part of it, but Mantle was also his own worst enemy. His fatalistic attitude probably hurt him as much as his injuries.

    And he wasn't smart. He once confessed to "trying to hit a home run every single time I came to the plate." Imagine what Ty Cobb's brains could've done in Mantle's body.

    I thought he did'nt have the attitude change until his father died. I'm not sure about how smart Mantle was. Like I said, I wish I would have asked my g-grandfather more detailed questions about certain players. Besides what I know from him, all these players are just pictures and stats.

    But, I would'nt call the guy "not smart" from one statement. I watched a tape of the interview when he said that. In my opinion, he said it in a joking manner. But Stengel said a lot worse, and a whole lot funnier comments, but I doubt there is a man on earth that would call him not smart.

    But your right about Cobb. He was the -Einstein/michelangelo/Isaac Newton- of baseball. There will never be another.

    Leave a comment:


  • Metal Ed
    replied
    Bill, with your speech on smarts, you've convinced me that I need to rank Johnny Bench higher than I currently do.

    Brian, interesting comments about Mantle. I've long thought that Mantle had as much raw talent as anybody who ever lived. He could've been the greatest player who ever lived, "if only...."

    "If only." If only what? If only he wasn't injured all the time? That was part of it, but Mantle was also his own worst enemy. His fatalistic attitude probably hurt him as much as his injuries.

    And he wasn't smart. He once confessed to "trying to hit a home run every single time I came to the plate." Imagine what Ty Cobb's brains could've done in Mantle's body.
    Last edited by Metal Ed; 02-25-2005, 08:02 AM.

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  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Originally posted by csh19792001
    You outline the litany of impressive statistics he put up- but there is one caveat here- talking about Big Train vs. Ruth is unfair. The three 1-0 games is a microcosm of the run support Johnson got for his teams over his career- generally awful.

    Any comparison of Ruth vs. Johnson is going to be unfair, because Ruth's teams won 3 World Series titles during those years and had a .612 WPCT. Johnson's teams won no pennants and had a .522 WPCT.
    It was for that very reason that I stated that 3 of the games were by scores of 1-0, to illustrate that it was not a case of the more potent Red Sox bats that were responsible for at least 3 of those 6 victories. Both pitchers pitched outstanding games in those 3 match ups.

    Glad to see you point out what is also my belief, no way do I compare Babe Ruth the pitcher to Walter Johnson the pitcher. I usually close with that thought when I post the Ruth/Johnson games, I did forget to do so in my previous post.

    Ruth did not pitch long enough to be compared to Johnson so I do agree with your post. No way to tell what Ruth might have accomplished had he stuck to pitching but he was very good in those 3 seasons. Johnson proved that he was one of the best over a whole career and did it with not much support.

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  • csh19792001
    replied
    Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3

    Ruth and Walter Johnson faced off 9 times.
    Ruth won 6 times, Johnson won 3 times.
    Three of Ruth's wins were by scores of 1-0.
    One of Johnsons wins over Ruth was in relief.
    May 5, 1918. Johnson beat Ruth, 4-3 in 10 innings. In that game Ruth was 5 for 5, one single, 3 doubles and a triple.

    I think it's clear that Babe Ruth was a very talented ballplayer, on the mound or in the batter's box.
    The Babe was an outstanding pitcher and an incredible raw talent- and I won't diminish his accomplishments on the mound. He was incredibly raw, period. Cobb said after his passing in 1948, that Babe was: "The most unaffected man I ever knew"

    You outline the litany of impressive statistics he put up- but there is one caveat here- talking about Big Train vs. Ruth is unfair. The three 1-0 games is a microcosm of the run support Johnson got for his teams over his career- generally awful.

    Any comparison of Ruth vs. Johnson is going to be unfair, because Ruth's teams won 3 World Series titles during those years and had a .612 WPCT. Johnson's teams won no pennants and had a .522 WPCT.

    Leave a comment:


  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Originally posted by Astro
    Please... pitching back then is A LOT different than it is now... They'd probably tee off on Ruth, and Ruth probably wouldnt do aswell as he did back then against pitchers now... You cant compare them really because the game has evolved so much
    Here we go again, we will now diminish Babe Ruth the pitcher because of the period he pitched in. How can one say they would tee off on Ruth, how could we know what might happen.

    I agree, Ruth's ERA would have been higher had he pitched in the live ball era, the leagues ERA went up in the live ball era, that in no way means dead ball era pitchers could not do well in the live ball era.

    Let me first say, I can't say how well Ruth would have done in the live ball era, but "tee off " is a bit strong.

    Here is where Ruth ranked in both leagues in the years he was a pitcher only 1915-16-17. I had to go with a minimum of 865 innings pitched since Ruth pitched 867 innings in that time period.

    Both leagues 1915-16-17 and where Ruth was ranked in stats for those 3 seasons..

    Base runners/9Ip-----------5th
    Complete games------------5th
    ERA------------------------3rd. Alexander 1.54, Johnson 1.88, Ruth 2.02
    Hit/9 Innings pitched--------1rst
    Shutouts-------------------3rd
    Strikeouts------------------5th
    SO/BB per 9 Inn. Pitched----4th
    Winning percentage---------2nd
    Wins-----------------------3rd

    Ruth and his defense while on the mound 1915-16-17

    Range----------------4th
    Assists---------------5th
    Double plays ---------1rst
    Fielding Percentage---1rst

    Ruth and Walter Johnson faced off 9 times.
    Ruth won 6 times, Johnson won 3 times.
    Three of Ruth's wins were by scores of 1-0.
    One of Johnsons wins over Ruth was in relief.
    May 5, 1918. Johnson beat Ruth, 4-3 in 10 innings. In that game Ruth was 5 for 5, one single, 3 doubles and a triple.

    I think it's clear that Babe Ruth was a very talented ballplayer, on the mound or in the batter's box.

    Yes that pitching was in the dead ball era, but everthing was equal, same ball, same rules, same conditions as Alexander, Johnson and all the rest pitched under. And remember, Ruth was a LH pitcher facing a great number of RH hitters. If all those stats were for LH pitchers only Ruth would be on top in almost all of them.
    Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 02-24-2005, 10:14 PM.

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  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Brian,

    You Dad told you the same thing my Dad told me. Cool.

    Bill Burgess

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  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Jeffrey,

    And we can give you consideration because the stats agree, not because you want to, eg., champion Lange's cause

    (Bill - We're discussing Ty/Babe once more. Not Lange.)

    He had a fine OFer's arm, but when he hurt it around 1918, the runners started to run on him. But by learning to get rid of the ball instantly, with momentum byhind him, his assists went up, and they stopped running on him.



    His assists did go up in '19, then down in '20, then up in '21, then down in '22. What was your point?

    (Bill - In 1920, Ty incurred one of his few serious injuries. During a game on June 6, while chasing a fly ball in right center, Ty collided with his RFer Ira Flagstead and sprained his left knee so badly, he was out action till July 31, save a couple of games. They went down again in '22, because the boys learned that they could not get away with running on him and stopped running. He tied his second highest amount in '21. Point: Brains, my lad, brains. Compensated for a serious setback with his brains. Big point towards being the best ever. Any more questions?)


    The best by far, and he never had a close second. And all history until 1960 concurred.

    I'm glad you were able to interview the entire world.

    (Bill - Not quite the ENTIRE world, simply all those who expressed an opinion in Sporting News, between 1920-1990, and many dozens of BB reference books, magazine, baseball guides, Baseball Magazine, 1908-1954, Baseball Digest, and lots of other sources. So, my cards are face up on the table. You holding any cards in your hand? And the results of your surveys are . . .?)

    Bill Burgess
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 02-24-2005, 09:07 PM.

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  • Brian2944
    replied
    I know this is not any kind of proof of anything. Just thought I'd share it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brian2944
    replied
    My great-grandfather was born in 1900 and died in 88'. He played baseball for the yankees farm system, but quickly was released and became a scout for the next 35 years. I look back now and wish I would have asked him some more complicated questions, but I was young and only wanted to know one thing...who was the greatest he ever saw?

    He said Ruth was amazing! He never met or witnessed anybody else who had more natural ability. He said his brain only held baseball. But he said Cobb was the greatest he ever saw. He said he could never decide who was more fun to watch, but there was no comparison to who was the better ball player. Cobb was baseball. Then he would go on to say how he wished they could fuse Cobb and Ruth into the same man.

    He said how excited everybody was about signing a potential "Cobb/Ruth mix". How he would be the best player who ever lived and would surpass Ruth and Cobb. It was Mantle.

    Leave a comment:

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