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Players and thoughts - assembling a team

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  • Players and thoughts - assembling a team

    Something is percolating in my head but it isnt quite there yet, maybe if I try to write it out it will come together

    The general idea is rating how you feel about players and putting them into 4 general categories. For explanation purposes we are talking about good historical players, not necessarily always all time greats but not journeyman or guys who are starters but offer nothing remarkable. The end result is the type of players you would like on a team you were manager/general manager/owner of.

    Remember these categories are still being formed in my head.

    Category "1" is the excellent player who you like admire (not just in baseball talent but overall) and would give anything to have on your team. To me, Willie Mays, Roberto Clemente, Johnny Bench are this type of player.

    Category "2" is the player who you like and admire but just doesn't cut it for you as a must have player, despite strong credentials. To me Brooks Robinson and Cal Ripken are good examples (nothing against Orioles), What not to like but just not quite what I prefer if I was making a team (the team is NOT supposed to be the all time best players at each position).

    Category "3" is the type of player you don't like or admire but you know what, I will take them for specific reasons. To me an Ozzie Smith is this type of player.

    Category "4" is the type of player you not only do not like or admire, but despite fantastic skills/stats, you don't want them. To me, Ty Cobb, Ted Williams are this type of player.


    I wish I had names for the categories to describe them (as opposed to "1",
    "2" etc.) but I will take a list of players from Bill James all time rankings and assign them categories (subject to change)


    Babe Ruth - 3
    Honus Wagner - 1
    Willie Mays - 1
    Oscar Charleston - not qualified to answer
    Ty Cobb - 4
    Mickey Mantle - 1
    Ted Williams - 4
    Walter Johnson - 1
    Josh Gibson - not qualified to answer
    Stan Musial - 1
    Tris Speaker - 3
    Henry Aaron - 2
    Joe DiMaggio - 1
    Lou Gehrig - 1
    Joe Morgan - 1
    Barry Bonds - 3
    Satchel Paige - not qualified to answer
    Eddie Collins - 1
    Lefty Grove - 3
    Pete Alexander - 3 or 4
    Mike Schmidt - 1
    Rogers Hornsby - 4
    Cy Young - not qualified to answer
    Frank Robinson - 3
    Turkey STearns - not qualified to answer
    Pop Lloyd - not qualified to answer
    Mel Ott - 3
    Jimmie Foxx - 3
    George Brett - 1
    Mark McGwire - 4
    Jackie Robinson - 1
    Pete Rose - 4
    Eddie Mathews - 2
    Craig Biggio - 2
    Warren Spahn - 2
    Carl Yastrzemski - 2 or 1
    Tom Seaver - 1
    Arky Vaughan - not qualified to answer
    Nap Lajoie - 2??
    Yogi Berra - 1
    Christy Mathewson - 1
    Mule Suttles - not qualified to answer
    Johnny Bench - 1
    Jeff Bagwell - 2 or 4
    Bob Gibson - 3
    Kid Nichols - not qualified to answer
    Cal Ripken - 2
    Roger Clemens - 4
    Duke Snider - 1
    Sandy Koufax - 1
    Smokey Joe WIlliams - NQTA
    Roy Campanella - 1
    Tony Gwynn - 2
    Robin Yount - 2
    Bob Feller - 2
    Reggie Jackson - 3
    Rybe Sandberg - 2
    Charlie Gehringer - 1
    Wade Boggs - 4
    Eddie Murray - 2
    Johnny MIze - 1
    Harmon Killebrew - 2
    Rod Carew - 1
    Buck Leonard - NQTA
    Joe Jackson - 3
    Cristobal Torriente - NQTA
    Hank Greenberg - 2
    Willie McCovey - 1
    Home Run Baker - NQTA
    Al Simmons - 2
    Mickey Cochrane - 2
    Ken Griffey Jr - 2 or 4
    Roberto Clemente - 1
    Frank Thomas - 4
    Cool Papa Bell - NQTA
    Ernie Banks - 2
    Steve Carlton - 3
    Mike Piazza - 4
    Roberto Alomar - 3

    ok I will stop there

    any thoughts??
    Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 12-16-2009, 02:03 AM.
    1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
    2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
    3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

  • #2
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    Something is percolating in my head but it isnt quite there yet, maybe if I try to write it out it will come together

    The general idea is rating how you feel about players and putting them into 4 general categories. For explanation purposes we are talking about good historical players, not necessarily always all time greats but not journeyman or guys who are starters but offer nothing remarkable. The end result is the type of players you would like on a team you were manager/general manager/owner of.

    Remember these categories are still being formed in my head.

    Category "1" is the excellent player who you like admire (not just in baseball talent but overall) and would give anything to have on your team. To me, Willie Mays, Roberto Clemente, Johnny Bench are this type of player.

    Category "2" is the player who you like and admire but just doesn't cut it for you as a must have player, despite strong credentials. To me Brooks Robinson and Cal Ripken are good examples (nothing against Orioles), What not to like but just not quite what I prefer if I was making a team (the team is NOT supposed to be the all time best players at each position).

    Category "3" is the type of player you don't like or admire but you know what, I will take them for specific reasons. To me an Ozzie Smith is this type of player.

    Category "4" is the type of player you not only do not like or admire, but despite fantastic skills/stats, you don't want them. To me, Ty Cobb, Ted Williams are this type of player.


    I wish I had names for the categories to describe them (as opposed to "1",
    "2" etc.) but I will take a list of players from Bill James all time rankings and assign them categories (subject to change)


    Babe Ruth - 3
    Honus Wagner - 1
    Willie Mays - 1
    Oscar Charleston - not qualified to answer
    Ty Cobb - 4
    Mickey Mantle - 1
    Ted Williams - 4
    Walter Johnson - 1
    Josh Gibson - not qualified to answer
    Stan Musial - 1
    Tris Speaker - 3
    Henry Aaron - 2
    Joe DiMaggio - 1
    Lou Gehrig - 1
    Joe Morgan - 1
    Barry Bonds - 3
    Satchel Paige - not qualified to answer
    Eddie Collins - 1
    Lefty Grove - 3
    Pete Alexander - 3 or 4
    Mike Schmidt - 1
    Rogers Hornsby - 4
    Cy Young - not qualified to answer
    Frank Robinson - 3
    Turkey STearns - not qualified to answer
    Pop Lloyd - not qualified to answer
    Mel Ott - 3
    Jimmie Foxx - 3
    George Brett - 1
    Mark McGwire - 4
    Jackie Robinson - 1
    Pete Rose - 4
    Eddie Mathews - 2
    Craig Biggio - 2
    Warren Spahn - 2
    Carl Yastrzemski - 2 or 1
    Tom Seaver - 1
    Arky Vaughan - not qualified to answer
    Nap Lajoie - 2??
    Yogi Berra - 1
    Christy Mathewson - 1
    Mule Suttles - not qualified to answer
    Johnny Bench - 1
    Jeff Bagwell - 2 or 4
    Bob Gibson - 3
    Kid Nichols - not qualified to answer
    Cal Ripken - 2
    Roger Clemens - 4
    Duke Snider - 1
    Sandy Koufax - 1
    Smokey Joe WIlliams - NQTA
    Roy Campanella - 1
    Tony Gwynn - 2
    Robin Yount - 2
    Bob Feller - 2
    Reggie Jackson - 3
    Rybe Sandberg - 2
    Charlie Gehringer - 1
    Wade Boggs - 4
    Eddie Murray - 2
    Johnny MIze - 1
    Harmon Killebrew - 2
    Rod Carew - 1
    Buck Leonard - NQTA
    Joe Jackson - 3
    Cristobal Torriente - NQTA
    Hank Greenberg - 2
    Willie McCovey - 1
    Home Run Baker - NQTA
    Al Simmons - 2
    Mickey Cochrane - 2
    Ken Griffey Jr - 2 or 4
    Roberto Clemente - 1
    Frank Thomas - 4
    Cool Papa Bell - NQTA
    Ernie Banks - 2
    Steve Carlton - 3
    Mike Piazza - 4
    Roberto Alomar - 3

    ok I will stop there

    any thoughts??
    Just wondering why you admire drunken Mantle, snobby DiMaggio, annoying Joe Morgan but don't like Speaker, Ruth, Alexander, FRobinson, Ott, Carlton. We know why you don't like BGibson
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by RuthMayBond View Post
      Just wondering why you admire drunken Mantle, snobby DiMaggio, annoying Joe Morgan but don't like Speaker, Ruth, Alexander, FRobinson, Ott, Carlton. We know why you don't like BGibson
      this isnt a church or moral type of admiration

      it is a general admiration and like or preference

      it is really more baseball related than anything
      1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
      2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
      3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
        this isnt a church or moral type of admiration

        it is a general admiration and like or preference

        it is really more baseball related than anything
        I don't understand admiring Morgan but not Ruth, baseball-related.
        I don't even understand what type of comments you want
        Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
        Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
          Category "2" is the player who you like and admire but just doesn't cut it for you as a must have player, despite strong credentials. To me Brooks Robinson and Cal Ripken are good examples (nothing against Orioles), What not to like but just not quite what I prefer if I was making a team (the team is NOT supposed to be the all time best players at each position).
          Do you mean they (Robinson and Ripken) are not "must have" players because there are clearly better SSs and 3Bs?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by dgarza View Post
            Do you mean they (Robinson and Ripken) are not "must have" players because there are clearly better SSs and 3Bs?
            no

            it means they are players, Hall of Famers who you would name your childen after with some perceived flaws in what I want for my team

            I prefer a more athletic speedy middle infielder especially at SS

            and Brooks is great but in general I do not like slow footed RH hitters with low OB%, especially with a George Brett avaibable who can add LH balance to my lineup


            again RMB, it is NOT soley baseball admiration (who is the better player statistically) nor is it heavily church/moral admiration, but a combination of various factors, Clemente is my RF and there are many RF much better, I like what Clemente overall brings to my team
            1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
            2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
            3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

            Comment


            • #7
              I guess if I "rated" the categories it would be

              first choice - 1
              second choice - 3
              third choice - 2
              fourth choice - 4

              for example, I would probably take Yaz over Williams if my first choices (in categories 1 and 3 were not available). I am not saying Yaz is a better player than WIlliams, I am saying he is who I prefer on MY TEAM

              my LF choices, then should go like this
              1) Musial (1)
              2) Bonds (3)
              3) Yaz (2)
              4) Williams (4)

              if I rated them soley on overall baseball skills and performance, my rankings might be
              1) Bonds
              2) Musial
              3) Williams
              4) Yaz

              yes I know many have Williams as a top 5 player
              I have several LF ahead of him for what I WANT (probably Rickey H ahead of him as well)
              1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
              2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
              3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post

                and Brooks is great but in general I do not like slow footed RH hitters with low OB%, especially with a George Brett avaibable who can add LH balance to my lineup

                But isn't that still just saying that although you admire Brooks, Brett is a better 3B? I'm not understanding here.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                  for example, I would probably take Yaz over Williams if my first choices (in categories 1 and 3 were not available). I am not saying Yaz is a better player than WIlliams, I am saying he is who I prefer on MY TEAM

                  yes I know many have Williams as a top 5 player
                  I have several LF ahead of him for what I WANT (probably Rickey H ahead of him as well)
                  OK. I guess my question now is what to you WANT from your team?
                  Obviously you don't want the best team. So what do YOU want? What are your motives? Your motives for having this team? Are you saying you don't want negative personalities that might hinder your winning? Or is it just a "nice guy" club?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by dgarza View Post
                    OK. I guess my question now is what to you WANT from your team?
                    Obviously you don't want the best team. So what do YOU want? What are your motives? Your motives for having this team? Are you saying you don't want negative personalities that might hinder your winning? Or is it just a "nice guy" club?
                    good questions

                    although not directed to you, I should also note one should not have to defend or debate or argue thier choices

                    as to your questions, I think in assembling a team many factors need to be considered

                    1) if by chance all the best players in history were LH hitters, and you chose them opponents would simply throw LH pitchers at you decreasing your teams performance and value, so having a balanced lineup (not just RH/LH, but speed/power, offense/defense etc etc ALL factor in)
                    2) clubhouse chemistry and other things like crassness, selfishness etc SHOULD be considered to me that is very important and one of the most overlooked things in "ranking" players
                    3) it is not a nice guy club that is category 2 which I have said would be my third choice of 4 available
                    4) and who is to say what is the "best" club?, if the team has a bunch of Ted Williams, who have great percentage stats, but dont play full seasons, cant field, cant run, cant throw, and are not great clubhouse guys why does that make them the best player/team? to me it doesn't

                    I want a balanced team of very good or better players who contribute in more ways than 1, with limited exceptions, heck I like Ozzie as my SS because he is fantastic fielder and can manufacture runs with small ball and speed. If I have a team of sluggers playing in the astrodome in the 60s, I am not going to win very many games, likewise if I am in Fenway Park in the 70s a mid 80s STL Cards team probably would not do to well either.

                    you cant have all johnny all american nice guys, you can't have all great percentage stats guys (offensive), you need a team with a good blend of everything
                    Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 12-16-2009, 10:36 AM.
                    1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                    2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                    3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                      good questions

                      although not directed to you, I should also note one should not have to defend or debate or argue thier choices
                      So you didn't really mean

                      "any thoughts??"
                      Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                      Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by RuthMayBond View Post
                        So you didn't really mean

                        "any thoughts??"
                        any thoughts would be

                        what do you as a coach/gm/owner value in a player or team

                        if you put them in categories like I did what would your categories be

                        do you want players of all the same type (same category) or a blend?

                        what players would fit into your categories?

                        not a bunch of wiseass why did you pick that guy and why not this guy?
                        1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                        2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                        3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                          any thoughts would be

                          do you want players of all the same type (same category) or a blend?
                          A blend. As much as I'd like a second Babe Ruth in my lineup, I'm not sure I'd want him playing SS.

                          <not a bunch of wiseass why did you pick that guy and why not this guy?>

                          Maybe you should have told us what questions we were permitted to ask
                          Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                          Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by RuthMayBond View Post
                            A blend. As much as I'd like a second Babe Ruth in my lineup, I'm not sure I'd want him playing SS.

                            <not a bunch of wiseass why did you pick that guy and why not this guy?>

                            Maybe you should have told us what questions we were permitted to ask
                            well if you read the first post you would have hopefully gathered this was a thought process/work in progress

                            having to defend or debate choices gets old and is just finger pointing gone mad which is all too often the norm here

                            explaining how you assemble your team was an attempt at a FRESH approach to not only discuss players, but teams (put together), styles, and how you define certain players

                            this is why i made the 4 categories and then tried to give examples to show the general way I rate or want players
                            1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                            2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                            3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Why on earth would you put Mel Ott in the "do not like or admire" category?

                              Comment

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