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Greatest general managers of all time?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by JessePopHaines16 View Post
    Didnt know that he discovered Honus Wagner who i believe is the greatest shortstop ever. To bad he didnt stay on the tigers longer or else he would of had discovered Ty Cobb also.

    Imagine that being the guy who discovered Ruth, Wagner, and Cobb. What a resume that would have been.
    If he stayed on the Tigers, maybe Cobb doesn't become a Tiger.
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    • #17
      Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
      If he stayed on the Tigers, maybe Cobb doesn't become a Tiger.
      True. Still he had an impressive resume with all the talent he discovered and all the world series he won.

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      • #18
        I can't see anybody ahead of Rickey. He created the first workable farm system and broke the color line, and that alone would be sufficient to put him in a class by himself, but he was also responsible for other less spectacular but valuable innovations. He was far ahead of his time in paying attention to stats like H/IP, OBP and K/BB ratio and was a brilliant trade negotiator.

        His philosophy was that it's better to trade a player a year early than a year late, and naturally he was going to make a mistake or two that way. But he also unloaded a lame-armed Dizzy Dean, sixteen wins away from the end of his career, on the Cubs for a much bigger return than either Lefty Grove or Jimmie Foxx had brought the Athletics.

        Rickey built winners everywhere he went, but his biggest success was with St. Louis, for whom he created a team that was a profit generator and a league power for decades, when by rights a club in a small-market, two-team city ought to have considered it a good year if they went 75-79. I think he was easily the most valuable individual in the history of baseball.
        “Money, money, money; that is the article I am looking after now more than anything else. It is the only thing that will shape my course (‘religion is nowhere’).” - Ross Barnes

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        • #19
          Originally posted by EdTarbusz View Post
          Rickey did this because the veterans made more than less experienced players did. He also got a cut of the money saved by ownership on reducing the teams payroll.
          The more I learn about Branch Rickey, the more he seems a flawed hero. Someone should write a detailed biography on him. An indepth book, like Gene Carney did on the Black Sox, or Henry Thomas did on Walter Johnson. I mean a really great book.

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          • #20
            Brian Cashman

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Beady View Post
              I can't see anybody ahead of Rickey. He created the first workable farm system and broke the color line, and that alone would be sufficient to put him in a class by himself, but he was also responsible for other less spectacular but valuable innovations. He was far ahead of his time in paying attention to stats like H/IP, OBP and K/BB ratio and was a brilliant trade negotiator.

              His philosophy was that it's better to trade a player a year early than a year late, and naturally he was going to make a mistake or two that way. But he also unloaded a lame-armed Dizzy Dean, sixteen wins away from the end of his career, on the Cubs for a much bigger return than either Lefty Grove or Jimmie Foxx had brought the Athletics.

              Rickey built winners everywhere he went, but his biggest success was with St. Louis, for whom he created a team that was a profit generator and a league power for decades, when by rights a club in a small-market, two-team city ought to have considered it a good year if they went 75-79. I think he was easily the most valuable individual in the history of baseball.
              Agreed. He also put together 2 of the best farm systems, in St. Louis and Brooklyn. From top to bottom, player personnel guys, scouts, managers and coaches who were able to teach at every level and continually develop great talent.
              It Might Be? It Could Be?? It Is!

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              • #22
                Originally posted by JessePopHaines16 View Post
                Didnt know that he discovered Honus Wagner who i believe is the greatest shortstop ever. To bad he didnt stay on the tigers longer or else he would of had discovered Ty Cobb also.

                Imagine that being the guy who discovered Ruth, Wagner, and Cobb. What a resume that would have been.
                Ed most definitely discovered Honus Wagner before he was famous. He went looking for his brother, John, to offer him a job on the Louisville Colonels, and in his search, found Honus. He hired both of them. He remained extremely loyal to Wagner, in terms of asserting he was the greatest player ever.

                In terms of Ruth, yes, Ed was the person responsible for converting him from strictly a pitcher to a part-time out-fielder. Yes, the war made the conversion less painful, but still, it took some guts to use a star pitcher off the mound. True, Ruth was agitating to move off the mound and play everyday. He was supported in this by Harry Hooper.

                Babe's 2nd wife, Claire had some choice words for Ed Barrow in her 1959 autobiography, 'The Babe and I' as told to Bill Slocum. Here are a few of her choice morsels.

                "Barrow, as Babe's manager in Boston, and later as general manager of the Yankees, was his particular bete noir. Here was enmity from the start, with no quarter on either side over a quarter century. Huggins had to handle Babe at Babe's most riotous. Hug never succeeded. Ruppert was a constant foe at contract time and always backed Huggins, despite Houston's espousal of the Babe's rather weak case. Landis, as Commissioner of Baseball, was a cruel and ruthless judge. McCarthy exerted no discipline, just implacable loathing which was reciprocated.

                I do not see them all as blackly as they appeared to Babe. I think both Huggins and Ruppert tried very hard to understand their lucrative problem child. (pp. 61)

                "But Barrow did one thing for Babe Ruth. Barrow took Babe, who might well have become the greatest pitcher of all time, and made of him the greatest hitter of all time. And that took one thing Barrow had in abundance, courage. Taking Babe from the mound is not the obvious move it seems. It was obvious he was a remarkable hitter and even before Barrow came on the scene Carrigan and Barry occasionally took advantage of an opportunity to use Babe's bat more than once every four days by giving him an occasional job at first base or in the outfield. But neither man ever dared think of Babe as anything but a pitcher. Taking Babe off the mound was like telling Paderewski (Polish pianist Ignace Paderewski) that he should try the violin. (pp. 62-63)

                If for nothing else, the Babe and his friends can always be grateful to Barrow for having the courage of his convictions. And, frankly, I can think of nothing else to be grateful to Ed for. (pp. 64)

                But the Babe always felt that the basic problem he faced in dealing with Ruppert was Ed Barrow.

                Ed, tough as a hickory nut, wise in the knowledge that baseball law made Ruth helpless in all salary fights, was always set against big salaries for Babe. Ed's friends said Barrow was without rancor in the matter. He was merely doing his job, which was to run the Yankees as economically as possible.

                Babe felt Barrow's attitude was personal. They had fought in Boston and again in New York. They were bitter fights and the men hated each other. (pp. 142)

                So, Ed's relationship with the Babe was conflicted, to say the very least. Yes, he moved him off the mound, at Babe's agitation, but also blocked him off from the Yankee manager's position from 1929-1934. It was Ed's staunch opposition that made that move an impossibility. Ed stressed in his 1953 autobiography, 'My Fifty Years in Baseball', 1953, by Edward Grant Barrow with James M. Kahn, that Babe had never, ever even been considered as Yankee managerial material.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                  If he stayed on the Tigers, maybe Cobb doesn't become a Tiger.
                  Here is what Ed wrote in his 1953 autobiography, 'My Fifty Years in Baseball'.

                  "Also, while I was manager of Indianapolis in 1905, Andy Roth, manager of the Augusta, Georgia, club offered me two players--Ty Cobb, an outfielder, and Clyde Engel, second baseman, for $800. It was $500 for either one, or $800 for both, with Engle supposed to be the better ball-player of the two at the time.

                  But I turned it down. I was not in a happy mental state. I was still rankled when I thought of Navin and Detroit, and Ruschaupt's lack of knowledge abut baseball constantly annoyed me. Further, I had Fannie Taylor up in Toronto on my mind and I wanted to get back there. Indeed, I have told her many a time through the years that she cost me Ty Cobb. [Ed married her.]

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                  • #24
                    Just cuious Bill were there any other teams interested in Cobb?
                    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 10-19-2010, 04:27 PM.
                    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bill Burgess View Post
                      The more I learn about Branch Rickey, the more he seems a flawed hero. Someone should write a detailed biography on him. An indepth book, like Gene Carney did on the Black Sox, or Henry Thomas did on Walter Johnson. I mean a really great book.
                      Check out this book:

                      http://www.amazon.com/Branch-Rickey-...7526107&sr=8-1

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by JessePopHaines16 View Post
                        Yeah i know. He didnt want to do that at first because of the Hornsby deal with Breadon but after he made the series in 28 and 30 and won it in 31 and 34 i guess he felt pretty confident in those types of decisions.
                        It must be partly that once the farm system was producing constant supplies of fresh talent in great quantity, the philosophy that it's better to trade a player a year too soon rather than a year too late made a lot of sense. He always had a couple of likely prospects to replace anybody he sold. He was dealing from strength, just as Weiss and Barrow always were.
                        “Money, money, money; that is the article I am looking after now more than anything else. It is the only thing that will shape my course (‘religion is nowhere’).” - Ross Barnes

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                          Just cuious Bill were there any other teams interested in Cobb?
                          Not to my knowledge. But maybe I'm forgetting things I read long ago.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by EdTarbusz View Post
                            Have you read it and would it compare with the 2 books I mentioned? [Gene Carney's Bury The Black Sox, or Henry Thomas' Walter Johnson.]
                            Last edited by Bill Burgess; 05-19-2011, 12:01 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Bill Burgess View Post
                              Have you read it and would it compare with the 2 books I mentioned?
                              I read it and I thought it was better then the books you mentioned.

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                              • #30
                                Wow. Then it must be a real winner. Finally, a great book on Branch Rickey.

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