Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Greatest general managers of all time?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    I'm wondering Bill. How did Connie Mack like managing Cobb his last 2 years in the league?

    Also has anybody read that book about Cobb and Ruth? I seen it at borders for $15 and was wondering if its worth the buy.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by JessePopHaines16 View Post
      I'm wondering Bill. How did Connie Mack like managing Cobb his last 2 years in the league?
      He loved it! He called Ty the easiest man to manage he ever had. It started a long-term mutual admiration. Ty cried when Connie passed.
      Ty chose Connie to manage his all time team and Connie went to his grave calling Ty the greatest ever. Said it repeatedly.
      If you don't believe me, the quotes are in The Cobb Consensus. Connie leads off all of Ty's supporters.

      In his 1961 autobiography, Ty said that he regretted not playing all of his years under Connie Mack. He loved and respected him that much.

      When Ty went to the A's in 1927, Connie said that one of the reasons he wanted Ty to be with him, was that that would put a stop to all the rumors of 1926 and the scandal. And it did. But Connie went further. Much further. He told the press that the 1910 friction with respect to the alleged spiking of Frank Baker was long ago, and that he had forgiven Ty back then, and it did not bother him. He called Ty 'misunderstood'.

      Ty was so grateful that he went all out to justify Connie's faith in him. One of the things that he could do to repay Connie was to conduct hitting clinics every morning during spring training. Without being asked, Ty was at the ballpark early every day, holding hitting clinics. He analyzed each and every player who showed up. He critiqued their batting stances, their swings, and everything else about their hitting. And believe me, every single one of the A's showed up. Yep. They all came. Cochrane, Foxx, Simmons, Dykes, all of them. And Cochrane and Simmons became not only his pupils, but his life-long friends. Simmons liked him so much that they roomed together on the road.

      I have provided the quotes of both of them in Ty Cobb Thread. But just in case you got a case of the Lazies, I will provide links to the relevent quotes.

      Cochrane on Cobb the player

      Simmons on Cobb the player
      Last edited by Bill Burgess; 05-19-2011, 12:03 AM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Bill Burgess View Post
        He loved it! He called Ty the easiest man to manage he ever had. It started a long-term mutual admiration. Ty cried when Connie passed.
        Ty chose Connie to manage his all time team and Connie went to his grave calling Ty the greatest ever. Said it repeatedly.
        If you don't believe me, the quotes are in The Cobb Consensus. Connie leads off all of Ty's supporters.
        Well i just remember that people said Connie was worried when he played Cobb's tigers because Cobb was so aggressive. I thought he would have been a little worried about managing the guy.

        Comment


        • #34
          Aslo rmemeber Cobb played for Mr. Mack at the end of his carerr. I'm sure by then Cobb had mellowed quite a bit from his early Tiger years.
          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
            Aslo rmemeber Cobb played for Mr. Mack at the end of his carerr. I'm sure by then Cobb had mellowed quite a bit from his early Tiger years.
            yeah, I don't think he was killing people anymore

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Blackout View Post
              yeah, I don't think he was killing people anymore
              Or beating up his butcher.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by EdTarbusz View Post
                I read it and I thought it was better then the books you mentioned.
                Read it last year. very good bio.
                It Might Be? It Could Be?? It Is!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Beady View Post
                  The Mets became a winning team before the Astros did. I don't know how much credit Weiss deserves for that, but he was there and he would have gotten some of the blame if the team had gone on failing.
                  I've seen credit given to Bing Devine for sowing the seeds of the Mets' success during his fairly brief tenure there. Bing was also a fine GM with the Cardinals.

                  I think Frank Cashen deserves consideration too for bringing the Mets out of their Dark Years of the late '70s and early '80s with his Orioles-influenced emphasis on pitching.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by VIBaseball View Post
                    I've seen credit given to Bing Devine for sowing the seeds of the Mets' success during his fairly brief tenure there. Bing was also a fine GM with the Cardinals.

                    I think Frank Cashen deserves consideration too for bringing the Mets out of their Dark Years of the late '70s and early '80s with his Orioles-influenced emphasis on pitching.
                    i actually don't know how long Weiss was around or when Devine came in, but Devine certainly did have a good reputation. Also Harry Dalton, who was in on the ground floor for Baltimore's great years.

                    For anybody interested in this, I really recommend Veeck's Hustler's Handbook, which I recently reread, and which talks a lot about the pyschology of negotiating trades and what it was like to deal with the general managers who were active in the '50's and '60's and farther back.

                    I first read the book many years ago, and I've always remembered Veeck's description of Buzzie Bavasi, who would offer his negotiating partner lists of players from the Dodgers' big farm system to select from. Veeck said you could be overwhelmed if you didn't take a deep breath and stop to remind yourself these were just players that weren't good enough for LA, and if they couldn't help the Dodgers they weren't going to do much for your team, either. And when you resisted, Bavasi would say, "but you can have any three of them," as though, Veeck remarked, you could pile garbage up high enough and it would turn into diamonds.
                    “Money, money, money; that is the article I am looking after now more than anything else. It is the only thing that will shape my course (‘religion is nowhere’).” - Ross Barnes

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Beady View Post
                      i actually don't know how long Weiss was around or when Devine came in, but Devine certainly did have a good reputation.
                      George Weiss was with the Mets from 1961 to 1966.

                      George Martin Weiss:

                      Born: June 23, 1894, New Haven, CT
                      Died: August 13, 1972, Greenwich, CT, age 78

                      New York Yankees' farm director, 1932-47
                      New York Yankees' GM, 1947-60
                      New York Mets' President/GM, 1961-66

                      From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                      George Martin Weiss (June 23, 1894 – August 13, 1972) was an American baseball executive. He was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1971.

                      Weiss was one of Major League Baseball's most successful farm system directors and general managers. Working as the director of the New York Yankees' farm system from 1932 to 1947, he established it as one of the two best in the game, helping the Bombers win nine American League pennants and eight World Series championships. Then, during Weiss' tenure as the Yankees' general manager from 1947 to 1960, the team won 10 AL pennants and seven more World Series titles.

                      Weiss later became the first club president and general manager of the New York Mets from 1961 to 1966 after that expansion franchise was formed.

                      Early Life and career
                      George Weiss was born in New Haven, Connecticut, and attended Yale University. In 1915, he got his start in baseball when at age 20 he founded the New Haven MaxFeds in the independent Colonial League, an "outlaw" minor league associated with the Federal League. In 1919, Weiss borrowed $5,000 to acquire the New Haven franchise in the established Class A Eastern League, which was immediately nicknamed the Weissmen by local baseball writers. He operated the New Haven club, eventually nicknamed the Profs in homage to Yale, for a decade. Then, in 1930, Weiss took over the Baltimore Orioles of the Class AA International League for two seasons.

                      New York Yankees and the farm system
                      In 1932, at 37, he was hired by the Yankees to create a farm system, which had been pioneered in the National League by the St. Louis Cardinals and was the linchpin of the Cardinals' dominance of the Senior Circuit. Weiss grew the Yankee system from four farm teams in 1931 to 16 by 1939 and 20 by 1947. The Yankee farm system churned out many of the players who would lead the Bronx Bombers to their four consecutive (1936-39) World Series titles in the 1930s, their five straight titles (1949-53), and their six other championship clubs sprinkled throughout the rest of the 1940s and 1950s.

                      In October 1947, just after the 1947 World Series championship, Weiss was promoted to general manager of the Yankees, after the team's newly reconstituted ownership tandem of Dan Topping and Del Webb bought out original partner Larry MacPhail, who had also been general manager. Weiss led the Yankees to 10 AL pennants and seven world titles in 13 seasons. But after the Yanks were defeated in the 1960 World Series, Weiss and his longtime manager, Casey Stengel, were forced to retire. They were dismissed on the excuse of their age.

                      New York Mets
                      Weiss and Stengel would both return with the New York Mets. Weiss was named president and de facto general manager of the Mets in May 1961, and Stengel followed as skipper in 1962.

                      In Weiss' five seasons as Met general manager, the team escaped the NL basement only in Weiss' last year. He was succeeded by former Cardinal GM Bing Devine. He was named The Sporting News' Executive of the Year in 1950, 1951, 1952, and 1960. He was inducted into the New York Mets Hall of Fame in 1982.

                      Weiss died in Greenwich, Connecticut, at age 78 in 1972.
                      Originally posted by yanks0714 View Post
                      Webb/Topping decided to reduce costs and therby expenses. They met with George Weiss and outlined a 7 year plan to reduce expense. Among things tht Weiss was to do were:

                      * Lower salaries. They tied Weiss' own bonus to how much the yearly salary was for the parent club. Weiss, always a tough negotiator, becaome almost savage in salary talks with players. Mickey Mantle took a paycut after his great 1957 season! Why? Weiss told him, "You didn't win the Triple Crown'.

                      * Reduce the farm system. Do away with some agreements, minor league teams throughout all classifications. Determine who to keep in the system. Release, sell, trade those left out. The Yankees sank a lot of money in their farm system, subsidizing many of their teams. Weiss knew this was the hallmark of the Yankees always being on top. He knew this one would be the undoing of the Yankee dynasty unless he could come up with some way to delay or otherwise reverse the impact.

                      * Reduce the scouting department. The Yankees had more full time and part time scouts than any ML team. Their scouts also had freedom to sign players although they were held to those players success. Too many 'dropous' and they were gone. Webb/Topping wanted Weiss to reduce the number of scouts and have them check with Weiss befor signing anybody. This was another killer. Remember the Yankees swooping in and stealing Joe DiMaggio when the Red Sox hesitated? It's how they 'found' Mickey Mantle also.

                      * The Yankees were famous for their use of roving instructors. Many of them old time players who went through the minors tutoring young players, emphasizing fundamentals, teaching them the game and Yankee way.
                      Webb/Topping didn't understand the need for these old guys being carried on the payroll. Invite them to spring training but not full time throughout the season.

                      There were other things as well but these are the biggest impact items. Weiss, for his part knew that implementing these actions would be the end of the Yankee dominance and dynasty. BUT, he was a compnay man first and foremost. He would do as his bosses wanted but that wouldn't stop him from looking for alternatives to delay or reverse the process.

                      The implementation was over a 7 year period. So it wasn't apparent right away. The Yankees continued winning pennants and World Series. The sale of the A's from under the Mack family was engineered by the Yankees. It provided an opportunity for the Yankees to delve into behind the scenes with what could be called, at best, shady or shadowy actions bordering on the old Syndicate ball. Using the Kansas City connection, Weiss was able to delay the Yankee dynasty demise a few years.

                      Unfortunately, Weiss was dismissed, along with Casey Stengel, after the Yankees lost the 1960 World Series. The loss of Weiss crippled the Yankees and probably caused their downfall to come quicker as it was an aging ballclub.
                      -----------------------------------------------------------------w/Joe DiMaggio, January 24, 1950-------------------------------Lee MacPhail/George Weiss: November 10, 1948.

                      -----------------June 1, 1958.-----------------------------------------------------------Branch Rickey/George Weiss: January 8, 1954.-------------------w/Casey Stengel: March 7, 1963, St. Petersburg, FL, spring training.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Beady View Post
                        i actually don't know how long Weiss was around or when Devine came in, but Devine certainly did have a good reputation. Also Harry Dalton, who was in on the ground floor for Baltimore's great years.
                        Harry Dalton! There's a name I was hoping would come up. In my opinion he could definitely be considered one of the all-time great GM's. Look at his track record:

                        He replaced Lee MacPhail as Oriole GM after the 1965 season. His first big deal was the one that brought Frank Robinson to Baltimore, and the Orioles won two World Series and four pennants on his watch.

                        He went to the Angels after the 1971 season and his first big deal was the Nolan Ryan-Jim Fregosi swap. He also brought in Angel greats Bobby Grich and Don Baylor, who would be key players on the 1979 and 1982 division winners.

                        After the 1977 season he went to the Brewers, where he helped put together the successful Milwaukee teams of the 1980's.

                        As GM careers go, it has to rank up there among the best. It's one thing to prove yourself with one organization, but to do it with three suggests that you've got something special. (Fun fact: Dalton had Andy Etchebarren at each of his GM stops.)

                        Bing Devine was another solid guy, though I don't know if I'd call him "great" rather than "very good." He does deserve recognition for putting together the 1964 Cardinals and bringing Gil Hodges to the Mets though.
                        Last edited by ian2813; 10-20-2010, 01:04 AM.
                        Baseball Junk Drawer

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by EdTarbusz View Post
                          Rickey did this because the veterans made more than less experienced players did. He also got a cut of the money saved by ownership on reducing the teams payroll.
                          He got a percentage of either the net profit or the revenue from player sales, and did very well from that after his farm system started producing talent in large quantities. Does anybody know whether this kind of compensation scheme was unique to Rickey? Buying and selling players was routine procedure for every team at the time, and it would make sense for an owner to give the man in charge an incentive to maximize revenue.
                          “Money, money, money; that is the article I am looking after now more than anything else. It is the only thing that will shape my course (‘religion is nowhere’).” - Ross Barnes

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by ian2813 View Post
                            Bing Devine was another solid guy, though I don't know if I'd call him "great" rather than "very good." He does deserve recognition for putting together the 1964 Cardinals and bringing Gil Hodges to the Mets though.
                            Bing had 2 runs with the Cards, from 1958-till August, 1964, when Gussie Busch got impatient and fired him before the Cards came back from being about 11 games out. He came back in 1968 to replace Musial after his very succesfull one season as GM. I think he was fired after the 1976 season in his 2nd run.

                            Bing 1 did an excellent job. In a series of trades in the late 50's and early 60's he picked up Curt Flood, Bill White, Ernie Broglio, Julian Javier, Curt Simmons, Dick Groat and didn't up much in return. Of course his final trade was the best remembered, Broglio for Lou Brock.

                            Bing 2 didn't do as well. Especially with pitching. He traded away Steve Carlton, Jerry Ruess, Mike Torrez,Wayne Granger, Nelson Briles, Jim Bibby, although to be fair, the Carlton and Ruess deals
                            were at the insistence of Busch, over salary disputes. He traded a couple of talented position players, like Bobby Tolan and Jose Cruz, didn't get much back. He made a couple good deals, picking up Richie Allen and Reggie Smith and would trade them away for some average talent. [Allen-Ted Sizemore Smith-Joe Ferguson]
                            It Might Be? It Could Be?? It Is!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by ian2813 View Post
                              Bing Devine was another solid guy, though I don't know if I'd call him "great" rather than "very good." He does deserve recognition for putting together the 1964 Cardinals and bringing Gil Hodges to the Mets though.
                              From what I've read, Johnny Murphy (Devine's successor in New York) actually was behind the Hodges move, although Devine was still the GM in name.
                              The biggest thing that happened on Bing's watch in New York was that he got the Mets to enter the drawing for Tom Seaver, which they won.
                              According to Devine's obit in the New York Times, cheapskate Weiss didn't want to have to pay $50,000 if they won. (Devine started as Weiss' assistant.)

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by ian2813 View Post
                                There are lots of discussions about the greatest players and managers of all time, but what about general managers? These guys play a big role in the successes of their teams, yet there seems to be little consensus about the all-time greats after Branch Rickey and Ed Barrow. George Weiss and Larry MacPhail are both in the Hall of Fame, and both were primarily known as GM's, but it seems like I hear them criticized more often than praised. Were they then, truly among the best of the best?
                                Originally posted by ian2813 View Post
                                That was sort of my thought originally. Today you almost never hear mention of the "business managers" or "secretaries" before Barrow and Rickey, and I had been under the impression that that was because they were more like clerical workers than team-builders. When I asked about the greatest general managers I was thinking more along the lines of who the greatest team-builders were.

                                Regarding your earlier comments on George Weiss: That's interesting information. I suppose that raises another question: How much credit for a team's success should go to a GM and how much should go to scouts and such? Should we focus mainly on trades, free agent signings and managerial hires in evaluating a GM?
                                MacPhail is criticized primarily for leading resistance to integration in the 1940s and for loutish behavior.

                                On the other hand, although "known primarily as a GM" as ian says, MacPhail is not praised primarily for team-building. Rather he is praised (and he was elected to the Hall of Fame, I suppose) largely for his leadership on night baseball, radio broadcasting, season ticket plans, and so on.

                                There is a simple model of ballclub organization in the expansion era where the owner, president, general manager, and field manager are four different people. MacPhail's greatest claims to fame are presidential in that model.

                                Comment

                                Ad Widget

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X