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Bob Gibson------Pete Lacock

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Michael Green View Post
    On a related note, one of the classic clips is Nolan Ryan punching Robin Ventura. But I read at the time that most players applauded Ventura for charging the mound, because for years Ryan had been a true "headhunter" and, at least in the AL, got away with not answering for it due to that unspeakable blot on baseball, the designated hitter.
    The popular myth about that (some variation of Nolan "showing Ventura to respect his elders") has always infuriated me. Ryan had been plunking Sox players for a while before that incident, most notably Craig Grebek, who he hit on the arm for daring to hit a homer off of him. The context is almost completely forgotten in the mysty myth of Ryan, the Gunslinger. He had a vile side to his personality and that whole incident shows it well.
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    "All of which makes perfect sense on paper, unless you have actually at any time in your life watched baseball being played." - The Commissioner

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Michael Green View Post
      Flattening a batter or hitting him isn't pretty, but the idea is to induce fear or trepidation.
      It's supposed to be a purpose pitch, to prevent the hitter feeling too comfortable, to keep him from leaning over to get the outside pitch. What purpose is there to hitting a batter in an old-timers' game?

      Even if, as well may be the case, it's just intended as a joke at one level or another, it just demonstrates that weird sixties mentality, that assault with a deadly weapon was not just smart inside baseball, but good clean fun for the entire family.
      “Money, money, money; that is the article I am looking after now more than anything else. It is the only thing that will shape my course (‘religion is nowhere’).” - Ross Barnes

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
        The popular myth about that (some variation of Nolan "showing Ventura to respect his elders") has always infuriated me. Ryan had been plunking Sox players for a while before that incident, most notably Craig Grebek, who he hit on the arm for daring to hit a homer off of him. The context is almost completely forgotten in the mysty myth of Ryan, the Gunslinger. He had a vile side to his personality and that whole incident shows it well.
        Ryan hit Grebek and Ozzie Guillen, who had both homered off him in a previous game. Ryan apparently felt they weren't worthy of homering off his magnificent self.
        They call me Mr. Baseball. Not because of my love for the game; because of all the stitches in my head.

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        • #19
          Oddly, Frank Thomas didn't get that same treatment...
          3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

          "All of which makes perfect sense on paper, unless you have actually at any time in your life watched baseball being played." - The Commissioner

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          • #20
            Ryan owned Frank Thomas. Without being bothered to look it up, relying on my faulty memory, I think Thomas was 0-14 with 11 or 12 strikeouts against Ryan.
            They call me Mr. Baseball. Not because of my love for the game; because of all the stitches in my head.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
              Ryan owned Frank Thomas. Without being bothered to look it up, relying on my faulty memory, I think Thomas was 0-14 with 11 or 12 strikeouts against Ryan.
              Your faulty memory isn't that bad. Thomas went 0-12 with 11 strikeouts.
              http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...tcher=ryanno01

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              • #22
                Doesn't matter whether it's true or not. You know the golden rule - don't let the truth get in the way of a good story
                I believe in all that - in baseball, in picnics, in freedom. Walt Whitman, 1888

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                • #23
                  I will never condone the act of grown men throwing a dangerous object at other humans at 90+ MPH out of revenge. Even if serious injury risk is slight - there is still too much of a risk to take the chance. It is wrong, regardless if it was "just-the-way-it-was" or if it was routine or if it exemplified a revisionist, nestalgic perception of a time when "men were real men". And we should not glamourize the Gibsons, Wynns, Drysdales, or (insert your favorite "old-school" pitcher here) for doing so. That being said, Gibson is on the record saying that he never threw at batters' heads on purpose, and if a ball ever did hit a helmet, it was just an inside pitch.

                  Do we believe him?
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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by STLCards2 View Post
                    I will never condone the act of grown men throwing a dangerous object at other humans at 90+ MPH out of revenge. Even if serious injury risk is slight - there is still too much of a risk to take the chance. It is wrong, regardless if it was "just-the-way-it-was" or if it was routine or if it exemplified a revisionist, nestalgic perception of a time when "men were real men". And we should not glamourize the Gibsons, Wynns, Drysdales, or (insert your favorite "old-school" pitcher here) for doing so. That being said, Gibson is on the record saying that he never threw at batters' heads on purpose, and if a ball ever did hit a helmet, it was just an inside pitch.

                    Do we believe him?
                    I do. I think there is a tendency to forget that many of these stories are told to help sell the book or DVD or whatever. I doubt Gibson was a headhunter...although he did break Jimmy Ray Hart's shoulder with a pitch...........

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by sandy1 View Post
                      I do. I think there is a tendency to forget that many of these stories are told to help sell the book or DVD or whatever. I doubt Gibson was a headhunter...although he did break Jimmy Ray Hart's shoulder with a pitch...........
                      We'll all believe what we want. I believe that Gibson was basically amoral in his approach to the game- that is, he had no sense of ethics. He had a win at all costs mentality. He was going to do whatever he could to win, and super intimidation was a big part of it. He wasn't going to stop until forced to, and in the strange logic of the time, he never was forced to. Great pitcher, definitely not a great person- in my opinion.
                      Last edited by BigRon; 12-01-2010, 09:42 AM.

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                      • #26
                        On one of these "recent" shows Wilie Mays and Gibson were both there and Mays said at him point blank "you were a headhunter" I seem to recall Gibson did not take too kindly to Mays' remark, I think Aaron was there as well but not 100% sure

                        Originally posted by sandy1 View Post
                        I do. I think there is a tendency to forget that many of these stories are told to help sell the book or DVD or whatever. I doubt Gibson was a headhunter...although he did break Jimmy Ray Hart's shoulder with a pitch...........
                        Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 12-01-2010, 01:29 PM.
                        1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                        2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                        3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                          On one of these "recent" shows Wilie Mays and Gibson were both there and Mays said at him point blank "you were a headhunter" I seem to recall Gibson did not take too kindly to Mays' remark, I think Aaron was there as well but not 100% sure
                          I remember the show (it was with Costas and Aaron) , but I dont remember Mays calling him a "headhunter". I thought he said he was "mean". Of course, there is a great story about Mays and Gibson that was circulated around the same time.

                          And there is this classic exchange with Bob Gibson as Hirsch describes how Mays, late in his career, would take his off days when Gibson was pitching. The Cardinals' pitching legend visited Mays once at his home, and Hirsch recounts what happened:

                          "Is that Gibson?" Mays asked in disbelief. "You wear glasses? Man you're going to kill somebody one of these days."
                          ...
                          As Gibson recalled, "After that, he never leaned over the plate too much."
                          Last edited by sandy1; 12-01-2010, 04:05 PM.

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                          • #28
                            It's not worth it...
                            Last edited by Los Bravos; 12-01-2010, 05:01 PM.
                            3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

                            "All of which makes perfect sense on paper, unless you have actually at any time in your life watched baseball being played." - The Commissioner

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I am pretty sure he said headhunter (maybe 90% sure)

                              also Mays played in 2 of 3 games gibson pitched against SF in 1970 and 1 of 3 in 1971 so I am not really buying the second part, he was 40 years old in 1971 (2 of 4 in 1969 as well)

                              Originally posted by sandy1 View Post
                              I remember the show (it was with Costas and Aaron) , but I dont remember Mays calling him a "headhunter". I thought he said he was "mean". Of course, there is a great story about Mays and Gibson that was circulated around the same time.

                              And there is this classic exchange with Bob Gibson as Hirsch describes how Mays, late in his career, would take his off days when Gibson was pitching. The Cardinals' pitching legend visited Mays once at his home, and Hirsch recounts what happened:

                              "Is that Gibson?" Mays asked in disbelief. "You wear glasses? Man you're going to kill somebody one of these days."
                              ...
                              As Gibson recalled, "After that, he never leaned over the plate too much."
                              Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 12-01-2010, 05:33 PM.
                              1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                              2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                              3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                also kind of reminds me of the bouton ball four story about whitey ford scuffing the ball in an oldtimers game "because I was sick of losing"

                                great stuff
                                1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                                2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                                3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                                Comment

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