Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Bob Gibson------Pete Lacock

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by STLCards2 View Post
    1. Yes, but the fact that every pitcher has... does not make it okay.
    2. Some pitchers did so much more often and with worse intents.

    I am inclied to agree that the MPH difference is not the mitigating moral factor. Someone who shoots a friend with a pistol does not deserve less jail time than somebody who shoots a neighbor with an oozie.
    When I post that it is ok.... feel free to repost your comment that it is not.

    As for MPH... name a soft tosser that has a rep for hitting batters, at the waist, in the ribs, in the shoulders, or head hunting? I for one cannot think of any.... which of course brings MPH back to the forefront of the discussion. "He threw a high hard one." or "that beauty of a pitch floated in there up and in all pretty like"
    "Herman Franks to Sal Yvars to Bobby Thomson. Ralph Branca to Bobby Thomson to Helen Rita... cue Russ Hodges."

    Comment


    • #47
      I'm not sure every pitcher has hit someone on purpose, but everyone who has lasted very long has moved someone off of the plate, as Maddux did to Eddie Murray in the '95 Series.
      3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

      "All of which makes perfect sense on paper, unless you have actually at any time in your life watched baseball being played." - The Commissioner

      Comment


      • #48
        I was saying that, among the pitchers routinely considered among the greatest ever, Seaver and Maddux were the only two to have a reputation for not throwing at hitters.
        Originally posted by Cougar
        "Read at your own risk. Baseball Fever shall not be responsible if you become clinically insane trying to make sense of this post. People under 18 must read in the presence of a parent, guardian, licensed professional, or Dr. Phil."

        Comment


        • #49
          ummm Sandy Koufax???

          Originally posted by nerfan View Post
          I was saying that, among the pitchers routinely considered among the greatest ever, Seaver and Maddux were the only two to have a reputation for not throwing at hitters.
          1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
          2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
          3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

          Comment


          • #50
            Sandy Koufax isn't among the greatest ever, in my opinion. He's top-20, and I rate him higher than a lot of "stats" guys because I like to emphasize peak. It's very difficult to make a case for Koufax being top-5 when most people don't even put Seaver in their top 5 (I do. For me, it's Clemens/Seaver/Johnson/Maddux/Grove, and I am fully aware that I might be the only person on earth to think Tom Seaver was the 2nd greatest pitcher of all time), and Seaver's top three seasons (1969, 1971, 1973) match up with Sandy's top three (1963, 1965-1966). Also the pesky little fact that Seaver pitched twice as many innings at comparable quality to Koufax.
            Originally posted by Cougar
            "Read at your own risk. Baseball Fever shall not be responsible if you become clinically insane trying to make sense of this post. People under 18 must read in the presence of a parent, guardian, licensed professional, or Dr. Phil."

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by nerfan View Post
              I was saying that, among the pitchers routinely considered among the greatest ever, Seaver and Maddux were the only two to have a reputation for not throwing at hitters.
              Walter Johnson did have a reputation for that.
              Maybe he doesn't have it any more.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
                Walter Johnson did have a reputation for that.
                Maybe he doesn't have it any more.
                Paul, could that have something to do with his age?

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by nerfan View Post
                  Couple of things.

                  First of all, the greatest pitcher of all time was Roger Clemens.


                  "Hey Mr. McGraw! Can I pitch to-day?"

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
                    I'm not sure every pitcher has hit someone on purpose, but everyone who has lasted very long has moved someone off of the plate, as Maddux did to Eddie Murray in the '95 Series.

                    Sure. But moving someone off the plate is a sight different than trying to hit them in the skull or ribs. It's all about intent. A pitcher throws inside because he wants to get the hitter out -- he's trying to bust him inside and induce a weak grounder, or perhaps he's setting up the next pitch. That's perfectly fine -- those little competitions are why baseball is such a great thinking-man's game.

                    Trying to hurt a batter is another thing. To me, that's not sport; it's brutality.

                    In the back of Gibson's mind, deep down, he must've known there was the very real chance of ending a hitter's career if he hit him the wrong way. These were the days when ballplayers didn't make a whole lot of money, so we're talking about the possibility of an injury literally taking food out of the mouths of a player's family.

                    There's nothing more fun than watching good, clean, HARD baseball. I love to see a baserunner slide into second aggressively to break up a double play -- but I don't want to see the guy deliberately trying to break the second-baseman's legs. Leave that crap for the football Neandrathals.
                    "Hey Mr. McGraw! Can I pitch to-day?"

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      If you are going to include a very small list (5) of great pitchers and CHOOSE your own and then say Seaver and Maddux were the only 2 great pitchers not to throw at hitters it is an almost hollow statement

                      2 of 5 is 40% (as opposed to say 2 0f 20 or 10%) and you are using subjective judgement to KNOW Johnson threw at pitchers, having a high hit batsman even in a tremendous amount of innings does no necessarily mean Johnson was a mean pitcher who threw at hitters, in a statistical world 3 over 2 is 60% to 40% but more importantly just 1 from throwing at to not throwing at and that is in real terms not meaningful (you treat 2400 patients with a new drug and 1600 are cured and 800 are not, that is a 2 to 1 advantage but 800 patient improvement, you treat 3 patients and 2 are cured and 1 is not that equals the same 2 to 1 ratio, but just 1 more positive outcome which is meaningless in the medical world)

                      so in reality, you are down to 2 of 4 assuming Johnson's status is not a given or proven

                      it is rather a hollow assessment

                      and I rate Koufax as the best pitcher from Grove to the mid 90s , regardless of his "short career" but that is another issue , I am much more impressed by Koufax's 3 unanimous awards when there was one award for two leagues than Seaver's non-unanimous awards in one league plus his 1 first and 2 second place MVP finishes vs Seavers top 2, 8, 9

                      Originally posted by nerfan View Post
                      Sandy Koufax isn't among the greatest ever, in my opinion. He's top-20, and I rate him higher than a lot of "stats" guys because I like to emphasize peak. It's very difficult to make a case for Koufax being top-5 when most people don't even put Seaver in their top 5 (I do. For me, it's Clemens/Seaver/Johnson/Maddux/Grove, and I am fully aware that I might be the only person on earth to think Tom Seaver was the 2nd greatest pitcher of all time), and Seaver's top three seasons (1969, 1971, 1973) match up with Sandy's top three (1963, 1965-1966). Also the pesky little fact that Seaver pitched twice as many innings at comparable quality to Koufax.
                      Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 12-04-2010, 10:15 AM.
                      1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                      2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                      3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Victory Faust View Post
                        Indeed.

                        Originally posted by Victory Faust View Post
                        Sure. But moving someone off the plate is a sight different than trying to hit them in the skull or ribs. It's all about intent. A pitcher throws inside because he wants to get the hitter out -- he's trying to bust him inside and induce a weak grounder, or perhaps he's setting up the next pitch. That's perfectly fine -- those little competitions are why baseball is such a great thinking-man's game.

                        Trying to hurt a batter is another thing. To me, that's not sport; it's brutality.
                        I don't really disagree, (but I do draw a fairly big distinction between the skull and the ribs, or the hip for that matter.)
                        3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

                        "All of which makes perfect sense on paper, unless you have actually at any time in your life watched baseball being played." - The Commissioner

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          I don't really take drugs into account when rating players. I assume everyone's guilty until they're innocent from the 90s.

                          You guys don't discount Gaylord Perry for cheating, and way less people threw spitters than put Andro in their systems.
                          Originally posted by Cougar
                          "Read at your own risk. Baseball Fever shall not be responsible if you become clinically insane trying to make sense of this post. People under 18 must read in the presence of a parent, guardian, licensed professional, or Dr. Phil."

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                            If you are going to include a very small list (5) of great pitchers and CHOOSE your own and then say Seaver and Maddux were the only 2 great pitchers not to throw at hitters it is an almost hollow statement

                            2 of 5 is 40% (as opposed to say 2 0f 20 or 10%) and you are using subjective judgement to KNOW Johnson threw at pitchers, having a high hit batsman even in a tremendous amount of innings does no necessarily mean Johnson was a mean pitcher who threw at hitters, in a statistical world 3 over 2 is 60% to 40% but more importantly just 1 from throwing at to not throwing at and that is in real terms not meaningful (you treat 2400 patients with a new drug and 1600 are cured and 800 are not, that is a 2 to 1 advantage but 800 patient improvement, you treat 3 patients and 2 are cured and 1 is not that equals the same 2 to 1 ratio, but just 1 more positive outcome which is meaningless in the medical world)

                            so in reality, you are down to 2 of 4 assuming Johnson's status is not a given or proven

                            it is rather a hollow assessment

                            and I rate Koufax as the best pitcher from Grove to the mid 90s , regardless of his "short career" but that is another issue , I am much more impressed by Koufax's 3 unanimous awards when there was one award for two leagues than Seaver's non-unanimous awards in one league plus his 1 first and 2 second place MVP finishes vs Seavers top 2, 8, 9
                            Alright, of the other great pitchers: Spahn did to an extent (didn't hit batters but certainly used the inside of the plate to his advantage), Alexander probably did to an extent, Carlton did, Pedro did, Randy didn't pause before flinging a high hard one, Feller did, Juan Marichal did. Cy Young threw very hard but increasingly relied on a high-and-in fastball towards the back end of his career when his stuff wasn't quite as good.

                            People who didn't: Well, Spahn didn't throw directly at batters, so I'll put him here. Mathewson didn't, Kid Nichols I have no idea, Robin Roberts didn't.
                            Originally posted by Cougar
                            "Read at your own risk. Baseball Fever shall not be responsible if you become clinically insane trying to make sense of this post. People under 18 must read in the presence of a parent, guardian, licensed professional, or Dr. Phil."

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by nerfan View Post
                              I don't really take drugs into account when rating players. I assume everyone's guilty until they're innocent from the 90s.

                              You guys don't discount Gaylord Perry for cheating, and way less people threw spitters than put Andro in their systems.
                              That is an astonishing statement in my mind... It really is. The thread is nearly highjacked already, but here goes.

                              If throwing a spitball is equivalent to the Great Pyramid at Giza, PED use is the Himilayas for me. Why?

                              No in game tests exist for PED use. Corked bats, sign stealing or pitch tipping, spitters or doctoring the ball in general can ALL potentially be seen by umpires, opponents, TV cameras, photographers, or even fans in the box seats. Players can even police these actions themselves, with a hard slide into a SS on a double play after he was tipping pitch location while leading off second base the inning prior. A high hard one to the guy who is stealing signs or trying to do so. Tony Larussa generally wants foul ball dribblers towards his dugout to be inspected for scuffs (certain pitchers) before being tossed into the front row.

                              PED's have no such tests. Barry Bonds never went to the plate with a syringe sticking out of his arse, and umpires don't have a chemical dipstick to test various containers in Clemens back pocket for HGH. That is the primary reason they are so sinister, the fact that PED's are illegal to posess a factor as well.

                              Considering all players in the 90's guilty until proven innocent? Ozzie Smith, all 150 lbs of him, was so sauced up it was obvious, right? Blanket statements for one group (90's players on roids) automatically requires other blanket statements.

                              Every single player who played in the 70's was on amphetamines!!!!! All pitches doctor the ball! Eddie Gaedel took shrink hormones.
                              "Herman Franks to Sal Yvars to Bobby Thomson. Ralph Branca to Bobby Thomson to Helen Rita... cue Russ Hodges."

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                When I watch baseball, I do so emotionally. I have absolutely ZERO respect for Barry Bonds the human being. He is a loathsome piece of work. He also happens to be the greatest player ever.

                                When I rank players, I attempt to create the most accurate and impersonal tests. This means attempting to judge players as best and as accurately as I can.

                                By the way, 150 pound guys can be on roids too - not accusing Ozzie, obviously. But roid users come in a lot of different shapes and sizes.
                                Originally posted by Cougar
                                "Read at your own risk. Baseball Fever shall not be responsible if you become clinically insane trying to make sense of this post. People under 18 must read in the presence of a parent, guardian, licensed professional, or Dr. Phil."

                                Comment

                                Ad Widget

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X