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Greatest Baserunner of All Time? A completely new take...

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  • #16
    Originally posted by leewileyfan View Post
    From 1901 to Present, I'd list [in NO particular order]:

    Tim Raines
    Willie Wilson
    Ty Cobb
    Bert Campaneris
    Luis Aparicio
    Barry Bonds
    Ron LeFlore
    Carl Crawford
    Kenny Lofton
    Ichiro Suzuki
    Amos Otis
    Max Carey
    Juan Pierre
    Johnny Damon
    Brett Butler
    Honus Wagner
    Davey Lopes
    George Case
    Bill Bruton
    Lou Brock
    Marquis Grissom
    Omar Moreno
    Richie Ashburn
    Willie Mays
    Kiki Cuyler
    So, you're saying that Rickey henderson is not one of the 25 greatest base runners?
    .


    19th Century League Champion
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    Comment


    • #17
      Rickey Henderson, due to his huge quantity, takes #1 in my book. But I believe that Vince Coleman has the best peak value, based on my formula. George Brett should not make any list. He wasn't that fast or smart of a baserunner. His SB% was ony 67.4%, which is weak for a guy that stole only 201 bases for his entire career. Also, George Brett's 3b/2b ratio was 137/665 pr 20.6%, which is also weak.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
        With that small of a sample it does not mean every much. .
        I was stating the 78% was the best I've seen for a single (full) season. That's merely a statement of fact.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by pheasant View Post
          Rickey Henderson, due to his huge quantity, takes #1 in my book.
          I consider baserunning separate than base stealing.

          By that definition, Henderson was not the best baserunner in history, and not even close. In fact he didn't even run the bases nearly as hard as he could have; he mostly ran to pad his own SB stats, which he cared about more than anything else. If you doubt that, read what he's said about his baseunning totals....proclaiming himself as "The Greatest Ever" when he passed Brock, or his giant "1406" medallion necklace he wears in public to this day.

          Code:
          LEADERS
          1979-2003
          
          PLATE APPEARANCES               PA     
          1    Rickey Henderson          13346  
          2    Cal Ripken                12883   
          3    Paul Molitor              11604   
          4    Eddie Murray              11461   
          5    Harold Baines             11092   
          6    Rafael Palmeiro           10973   
          7    Barry Bonds               10967   
          8    Wade Boggs                10740   
          9    Tim Raines                10359   
          10   Tony Gwynn                10232   
          11   Roberto Alomar            10210   
          12   Ozzie Smith               10110   
          13   Fred McGriff              10093   
          14   Chili Davis                9996   
          15   Craig Biggio               9990   
          16   Gary Gaetti                9817   
          17   Brett Butler               9545   
          18   Andre Dawson               9451   
          19   Robin Yount                9380   
          20   Lou Whitaker               9363 
          
          DOUBLES                         2B     
          1    Cal Ripken                  603   
          2    Paul Molitor                579   
          3    Wade Boggs                  578   
          T4   Rafael Palmeiro             543   
          T4   Tony Gwynn                  543   
          6    Barry Bonds                 536   
          7    Craig Biggio                517   
          8    Mark Grace                  511   
          9    Rickey Henderson            510   
          10   Eddie Murray                499   
          11   Roberto Alomar              498   
          12   George Brett                496   
          13   Edgar Martinez              492   
          14   Harold Baines               488   
          15   John Olerud                 473   
          16   Robin Yount                 465   
          17   Jeff Bagwell                455   
          18   Paul O'Neill                451   
          19   Andre Dawson                449   
          20   Andres Galarraga            444  
          
          TRIPLES                         3B     
          1    Willie Wilson               145   
          2    Brett Butler                131   
          3    Lance Johnson               117   
          4    Tim Raines                  113   
          5    Paul Molitor                110   
          6    Steve Finley                108   
          7    Robin Yount                 103   
          8    Juan Samuel                 102   
          9    Willie McGee                 94   
          10   Tony Fernandez               92   
          11   Andy Van Slyke               91   
          12   Vince Coleman                89   
          13   Kenny Lofton                 86   
          14   Tony Gwynn                   85   
          15   George Brett                 84   
          16   Andre Dawson                 80   
          T17  Roberto Alomar               78   
          T17  Alfredo Griffin              78   
          19   Ryne Sandberg                76   
          T20  Delino DeShields             74   
          T20  Barry Bonds                  74   
          T22  Barry Larkin                 73   
          T22  Garry Templeton              73   
          24   Dave Martinez                72   
          T25  Mookie Wilson                71   
          T25  Devon White                  71   
          T27  Omar Moreno                  70   
          T27  Luis Polonia                 70   
          T29  Jose Offerman                69   
          T29  Ozzie Guillen                69   
          31   Johnny Damon                 68   
          T32  Jay Bell                     67   
          T32  Brady Anderson               67   
          T34  Rickey Henderson             66  [/B] 
          T34  Lloyd Moseby                 66
          From 1979-2003, the "greatest baserunner of all time" hit as many triples as guys with HALF his PA's or less. Guys like Jose Offerman, Brady Anderson and Lloyd Moseby? Seriously? That's flat out pathetic. Sadly, the Rickey usually didn't go all out unless it padded his totals, and his double and triple totals prove it. You have guys like Brett Butler, Paul Molitor, and Robin Yount, who had nowhere near the raw speed but hustled on HELL of a lot more and were much better baserunners than Rickey Henderson ever was.
          Last edited by csh19792001; 02-12-2012, 08:06 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by csh19792001 View Post
            I consider baserunning separate than base stealing.

            By that definition, Henderson was not the best baserunner in history, and not even close. In fact he didn't even run the bases nearly as hard as he could have; he mostly ran to pad his own SB stats, which he cared about more than anything else. If you doubt that, read what he's said about his baseunning totals....proclaiming himself as "The Greatest Ever" when he passed Brock, or his giant "1406" medallion necklace he wears in public to this day.

            Code:
            LEADERS
            1979-2003
            
            PLATE APPEARANCES               PA     
            1    Rickey Henderson          13346  
            2    Cal Ripken                12883   
            3    Paul Molitor              11604   
            4    Eddie Murray              11461   
            5    Harold Baines             11092   
            6    Rafael Palmeiro           10973   
            7    Barry Bonds               10967   
            8    Wade Boggs                10740   
            9    Tim Raines                10359   
            10   Tony Gwynn                10232   
            11   Roberto Alomar            10210   
            12   Ozzie Smith               10110   
            13   Fred McGriff              10093   
            14   Chili Davis                9996   
            15   Craig Biggio               9990   
            16   Gary Gaetti                9817   
            17   Brett Butler               9545   
            18   Andre Dawson               9451   
            19   Robin Yount                9380   
            20   Lou Whitaker               9363 
            
            DOUBLES                         2B     
            1    Cal Ripken                  603   
            2    Paul Molitor                579   
            3    Wade Boggs                  578   
            T4   Rafael Palmeiro             543   
            T4   Tony Gwynn                  543   
            6    Barry Bonds                 536   
            7    Craig Biggio                517   
            8    Mark Grace                  511   
            9    Rickey Henderson            510   
            10   Eddie Murray                499   
            11   Roberto Alomar              498   
            12   George Brett                496   
            13   Edgar Martinez              492   
            14   Harold Baines               488   
            15   John Olerud                 473   
            16   Robin Yount                 465   
            17   Jeff Bagwell                455   
            18   Paul O'Neill                451   
            19   Andre Dawson                449   
            20   Andres Galarraga            444  
            
            TRIPLES                         3B     
            1    Willie Wilson               145   
            2    Brett Butler                131   
            3    Lance Johnson               117   
            4    Tim Raines                  113   
            5    Paul Molitor                110   
            6    Steve Finley                108   
            7    Robin Yount                 103   
            8    Juan Samuel                 102   
            9    Willie McGee                 94   
            10   Tony Fernandez               92   
            11   Andy Van Slyke               91   
            12   Vince Coleman                89   
            13   Kenny Lofton                 86   
            14   Tony Gwynn                   85   
            15   George Brett                 84   
            16   Andre Dawson                 80   
            T17  Roberto Alomar               78   
            T17  Alfredo Griffin              78   
            19   Ryne Sandberg                76   
            T20  Delino DeShields             74   
            T20  Barry Bonds                  74   
            T22  Barry Larkin                 73   
            T22  Garry Templeton              73   
            24   Dave Martinez                72   
            T25  Mookie Wilson                71   
            T25  Devon White                  71   
            T27  Omar Moreno                  70   
            T27  Luis Polonia                 70   
            T29  Jose Offerman                69   
            T29  Ozzie Guillen                69   
            31   Johnny Damon                 68   
            T32  Jay Bell                     67   
            T32  Brady Anderson               67   
            T34  Rickey Henderson             66  [/B] 
            T34  Lloyd Moseby                 66
            From 1979-2003, the "greatest baserunner of all time" hit as many triples as guys with HALF his PA's or less. Guys like Jose Offerman, Brady Anderson and Lloyd Moseby? Seriously? That's flat out pathetic. Sadly, the Rickey usually didn't go all out unless it padded his totals, and his double and triple totals prove it. You have guys like Brett Butler, Paul Molitor, and Robin Yount, who had nowhere near the raw speed but hustled on HELL of a lot more and were much better baserunners than Rickey Henderson ever was.
            If we exclude stolen bases, then I agree 100%. Rickey Henderson was not a top-notch baserunner. I did watch him play a lot also. I rarely remember him sliding into 3rd base, or even 2nd base for that matter. I don't ever remember him hustling as you mentioned. And I hated the way he hot dogged in the outfield by trying to spear the catch out of the air. I saw him blow it a few times, which was hilarious. Here are some speedburners that I drummed up. Willie Wilson and Vince Coleman were the two guys that came to my mind first. I remember watching Willie Wilson hit an inside the park homer once. That guy was aggressive and could really fly. Granted, Wilson and Coleman swung a toothpick up at the plate. Thus, the amount of their extra base hits is small in relation to their at-bats. But I don't think that should penalize their baserunning ability. These guys hit way too many ground balls to hit a lot of doubles. Thus, I look at 2b/3b ratio since stretching a double into a triple is what great baserunning is all about, in most instances. I.e, it's fairly rare to strech a single into a double. But I've seen guys like Willie stretch a double into a triple.And a speedy and good baserunner will have a lower than a 3/1 ratio in this department.

            Here's a list that I came up with:


            Players with a great 2b/3b ratio



            Lance Johnson 175/117=1.50

            Willie Wilson, 281/147=1.91

            Omar Moreno 171/87=1.97

            Vince Coleman 176/89=1.98

            Brett Butler 277/131=2.11

            Carl Crawford 244/112=2.18

            Jose Reyes 222/99=2.24

            Maury Wills 177/71=2.49
            Last edited by pheasant; 02-12-2012, 10:06 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
              So, you're saying that Rickey henderson is not one of the 25 greatest base runners?
              Errr, no. I had Rickey Henderson right on top; and not wanting to state the obvious, I wanted to shuffle him into the middle of the pack, which I [DUH] forgot to do. Nice catch. However, I would make a distinction between base stealing and great all-around base running. Some great base runners were not renowned base stealers.
              Last edited by leewileyfan; 02-12-2012, 10:08 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by csh19792001 View Post
                I From 1979-2003, the "greatest baserunner of all time" hit as many triples as guys with HALF his PA's or less. Guys like Jose Offerman, Brady Anderson and Lloyd Moseby? Seriously? That's flat out pathetic. Sadly, the Rickey usually didn't go all out unless it padded his totals, and his double and triple totals prove it. You have guys like Brett Butler, Paul Molitor, and Robin Yount, who had nowhere near the raw speed but hustled on HELL of a lot more and were much better baserunners than Rickey Henderson ever was.
                Rickey was too busy drawing walks way more often than Offerman, Anderson and Moseby, plus he played in bad parks for triples (Oakland, Yankee Stadium) for most of his career.
                .


                19th Century League Champion
                1900s League Champion
                1910s League Champion

                1930s League Division Winner
                1950s League Champion
                1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                1960s League Division Winner
                1970s League Champion
                1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                1980s League Champion
                All Time Greats League Champion

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by csh19792001 View Post
                  I You have guys like Brett Butler, Paul Molitor, and Robin Yount, who had nowhere near the raw speed but hustled on HELL of a lot more and were much better baserunners than Rickey Henderson ever was.
                  I think you are falling victim to the "white guys are hustlers" and "black guys are lazy" syndrome here. You picked out three white guys as your examples of great hustling baserunners and then say that the black guy, Henderson, dogged it.

                  Usually when a player is described as "scrappy, with a lot of heart" it's a white guy like Phil Garner or David Eckstein or Craig Counsell.

                  Usually when a player is described as selfish or dogging it, it's a black guy like Henderson, Barry Bonds, or Dick Allen.
                  Last edited by SavoyBG; 02-12-2012, 11:44 PM.
                  .


                  19th Century League Champion
                  1900s League Champion
                  1910s League Champion

                  1930s League Division Winner
                  1950s League Champion
                  1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                  1960s League Division Winner
                  1970s League Champion
                  1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                  1980s League Champion
                  All Time Greats League Champion

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
                    I think you are falling victim to the "white guys are hustlers" and "black guys are lazy" syndrome here. You picked out three white guys as your examples of great hustling baserunners and then say that the black guy, Henderson, dogged it.

                    Usually when a player is described as "scrappy, with a lot of heart" it's a white guy like Phil Garner or David Eckstein or Craig Counsell.

                    Usually when a player is described as selfish or dogging it, it's a black guy like Henderson, Barry Bonds, or Dick Allen.
                    And the "gamer" is almost always a white guy, too!
                    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
                      it's a black guy like Henderson
                      If a black guy doesn't want to be accused of not hustling then he should become a black guy who does hustle.
                      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                        If a black guy doesn't want to be accused of not hustling then he should become a black guy who does hustle.
                        Can you list for us some black guys who hustle, and some white guys who don't hustle?
                        .


                        19th Century League Champion
                        1900s League Champion
                        1910s League Champion

                        1930s League Division Winner
                        1950s League Champion
                        1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                        1960s League Division Winner
                        1970s League Champion
                        1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                        1980s League Champion
                        All Time Greats League Champion

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Hustle - Pierre, Granderson, Pokey Reese, Andrus

                          Don't - Holliday, Greinke, Dunn, Pat Burrell,
                          "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
                            Can you list for us some white guys who don't hustle?
                            Greg Luzinski
                            Gus Triandos
                            Mike Redmond
                            Les Moss
                            Charlie O'Brien
                            Marc Hill
                            Josh Bard
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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                              Hustle - Pierre, Granderson, Pokey Reese, Andrus

                              Don't - Holliday, Greinke, Dunn, Pat Burrell,
                              I think Dunn tries to hustle, but he can't get out of his own way. And it's hard to hustle while you're striking out.
                              Shalom, y'all!
                              What's the rumpus?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
                                I think Dunn tries to hustle, but he can't get out of his own way. And it's hard to hustle while you're striking out.
                                Haha, lacking hustle out of necessity.
                                "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                                Comment

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