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weakest armed outfielder of all time

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
    Oh yes it is. I remember him patrolling center at Fenway, putting forth his whole body just to throw what looked like 75 MPH.
    I've seen a lot of Damon as a Redsox and as a Yankee and I doubt he even hit 75mph. 75mph is actually quite fast coming from an outfielder.

    I've seen Bernie a lot too and I think Damon wins the sogggy noodle arm award. At least Bernie was al dente.

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    • #17
      I'm not sure there is an ideal stat to measure this since base runners tend to run more frequently on weak-armed outfielders, giving them many more opportunities for assists than stronger armed fielders would get. Of outfielders I have seen, Johnny Damon, Frank Howard, and Juan Pierre are at the top (or bottom, depending on how you look at it) of this list.

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      • #18
        Kirk Gibson did not have a strong arm. And on a few occasions he could barely muster getting the ball back to the infield.
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        • #19
          A few to consider

          Johnny Damon
          Luis Polonia
          Kirk Gibson
          Bill North
          Jose Tartabull

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          • #20
            If one with a bad reputation still doesn't get assists he must really suck at throwing. after all likely more guys try to run on them. I think a lot more guys try to run on pierre than on ichiro.

            I think the same is true for catchers too. I think that CS% numbers even underrate good throwers and overrate bad throwers. even miguel cabrera would steal against posada or piazza. on the other hand just a looking over by yadier is usually enough to make a potential basestealer going back to first.

            that means a lot more slow guys run on the bad thrower and still the numbers are much worse.

            good arms not only safe runs by throwing out people but also by keeping feet planted. of course this part is hard to quantify but it might by worth as much or more than the actual assists.
            Last edited by dominik; 02-20-2012, 01:01 PM.
            I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

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            • #21
              Richie Ashburn was known to have a weak dishrag arm duirng his career as well. Excellent defensive fielder who had alot pf PO's due to the extreme flyball tendancies of those Phillie teams but a weak arm.

              Yankees Fan Since 1957

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              • #22
                Originally posted by yanks0714 View Post
                Richie Ashburn was known to have a weak dishrag arm duirng his career as well. Excellent defensive fielder who had alot pf PO's due to the extreme flyball tendancies of those Phillie teams but a weak arm.
                I agree about Ashburn, but I was present for the last game of 1950 when he threw out Cal Abrams at Ebbets Field and kept the Dodgers from winning the pennant.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by yanks0714 View Post
                  Richie Ashburn was known to have a weak dishrag arm duirng his career as well. Excellent defensive fielder who had alot pf PO's due to the extreme flyball tendancies of those Phillie teams but a weak arm.
                  And, to keep the counterpoint alive, led the league in assists 3 times. Joe, that's amazing you were there for the Cal Abrams play.

                  All this makes me think that in SOME cases speed, a good jump, and a quick release are as important as a strong arm in patrolling the bases. The issue is elapsed time for the ball to go from plate to base, and I'd guess that most of that time consists of the fielder running the ball down and getting set, not the throw and relay. But that's just a guess.
                  Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
                    And, to keep the counterpoint alive, led the league in assists 3 times. Joe, that's amazing you were there for the Cal Abrams play.

                    All this makes me think that in SOME cases speed, a good jump, and a quick release are as important as a strong arm in patrolling the bases. The issue is elapsed time for the ball to go from plate to base, and I'd guess that most of that time consists of the fielder running the ball down and getting set, not the throw and relay. But that's just a guess.
                    The reason Ashburn led the league in assists was that he had plenty of opportunities because opposing teams were willing to run on his weak arm. An OF'er with a strong arm might not get as many opportunities because the opposition simply didn't challenge their arm. The challenged Ashburn's quite a bit.

                    Yankees Fan Since 1957

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Joe Barrie View Post
                      I agree about Ashburn, but I was present for the last game of 1950 when he threw out Cal Abrams at Ebbets Field and kept the Dodgers from winning the pennant.
                      I'm impressed that you were there for that game. A tip of the cap to you.

                      Ashburn himself stated that he cheated in a bit on the play. The ball came directly to him, not to either side, he charged it, fielded it cleanly, and made the throw of his life.
                      Abrams was no speed demon, not a slug, but not much more than average speed.
                      Ashburn made a great play that saved the Phillies and set up Dick Sisler's game winning heroics.

                      Yankees Fan Since 1957

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by yanks0714 View Post
                        The reason Ashburn led the league in assists was that he had plenty of opportunities because opposing teams were willing to run on his weak arm. An OF'er with a strong arm might not get as many opportunities because the opposition simply didn't challenge their arm.
                        I hear that, but it didn't hurt Clemente.
                        If we're talking softball, I think I win the prize here
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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by yanks0714 View Post
                          The reason Ashburn led the league in assists was that he had plenty of opportunities because opposing teams were willing to run on his weak arm. An OF'er with a strong arm might not get as many opportunities because the opposition simply didn't challenge their arm. The challenged Ashburn's quite a bit.
                          I know they did. I'm wondering whether it was wise to do so, if they were running on his arm and not thinking about his legs. How many extra advances were there, and did they offset the huge cost of getting thrown out at home, third, or second?
                          Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
                            I know they did. I'm wondering whether it was wise to do so, if they were running on his arm and not thinking about his legs. How many extra advances were there, and did they offset the huge cost of getting thrown out at home, third, or second?
                            That is a good question. We don't know how often he was challenged and the results of those challenges. It could be that many more made it safely which would be reason to make teams feel they could run on him.

                            Yankees Fan Since 1957

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                            • #29
                              Originally Posted by yanks0714
                              The reason Ashburn led the league in assists was that he had plenty of opportunities because opposing teams were willing to run on his weak arm. An OF'er with a strong arm might not get as many opportunities because the opposition simply didn't challenge their arm.
                              Originally posted by RuthMayBond View Post
                              I hear that, but it didn't hurt Clemente.
                              If we're talking softball, I think I win the prize here
                              I didn't know we were playing for prizes. I'll let you have the prize since I'm not one that really cares about winning or needs to be right over someone else all that much. I hope it's agood one for ya.

                              It's well known that Roberto too the 'challenge' every time, even when it wasn't advisible, allowing the batter or other runners to move up another base. This comes from several of his teammates, particularly in his earlier years.
                              Yes, Clemente had a great arm, runners were loath to challenge him. But I don't think he played smart fundamental baseball. I think there were times Roberto accepted the challenge when it probably wasn't advisible to do so.
                              In the next post about Ashburn, talking about the number of 'challenges', I would think Clemente had a probably high rate of, let's call them 'kills' for want of a better word while Ashburn may well have had a much lower rate.

                              Yankees Fan Since 1957

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                              • #30
                                "Glass Arm" Eddie Brown
                                Riggs Stephenson


                                Originally posted by RuthMayBond View Post
                                I hear that, but it didn't hurt Clemente.
                                If we're talking softball, I think I win the prize here
                                Baserunners challenged Clemente because, for all his prodigious arm strength, he was erratic, often making inaccurate throws and missing the cutoff man. Better to risk being thrown out at third if it means the runner heading home scores or the throw landing up in the stands, making that last 90 ft. a simple jaunt to the plate.
                                A swing--and a smash--and a gray streak partaking/Of ghostly manoeuvres that follow the whack;/The old earth rebounds with a quiver and quaking/And high flies the dust as he thuds on the track;/The atmosphere reels--and it isn't the comet--/There follows the blur of a phantom at play;/Then out from the reel comes the glitter of steel--/And damned be the fellow that gets in the way.                 A swing and a smash--and the far echoes quiver--/A ripping and rearing and volcanic roar;/And off streaks the Ghost with a shake and a shiver,/To hurdle red hell on the way to a score;/A cross between tidal wave, cyclone and earthquake--/Fire, wind and water all out on a lark;/Then out from the reel comes the glitter of steel,/Plus ten tons of dynamite hitched to a spark.

                                --Cobb, Grantland Rice

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