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weakest armed outfielder of all time

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  • westsidegrounds
    replied
    Originally posted by Bucketfoot View Post
    A Bill James mention--Glass Arm Eddie Brown. I am guessing he wasn't exactly Dwight Evans out there.
    Interesting.

    Found a little about the guy on bb-ref and in a snippet from The Braves Encyclopedia*: .318 career minor league batting average, but he didn't make it out of the minors until he was 32 years old (1924). Once he did make it, he hit .308, .306, .328 (with 201 hits to lead the league), and .306 again, and put together a 618-game playing streak. He could hit, but like you'd think, he could not throw, and when his batting sank down to .268 in 1928 he was gone.


    *by Gary Caruso, pub. Temple University Press 1995

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  • Bucketfoot
    replied
    A Bill James mention--Glass Arm Eddie Brown. I am guessing he wasn't exactly Dwight Evans out there.

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  • dominik
    replied
    Are there any statcast data out there who have the weakest arms currently?

    or course there are many Plays where you just lob the ball back but you could calculate average Velo on "challenge" throws (when you try to get someone at a base).

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  • Yankillaz
    replied
    I'm not reading the entire thead, but what is Manny Ramirez doing there?

    Sent from my GT-I9195L using Tapatalk

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  • Floyd Gondolli
    replied
    Originally posted by dominik View Post
    If one with a bad reputation still doesn't get assists he must really suck at throwing. after all likely more guys try to run on them. I think a lot more guys try to run on pierre than on ichiro.

    I think the same is true for catchers too. I think that CS% numbers even underrate good throwers and overrate bad throwers. even miguel cabrera would steal against posada or piazza. on the other hand just a looking over by yadier is usually enough to make a potential basestealer going back to first.

    that means a lot more slow guys run on the bad thrower and still the numbers are much worse.

    good arms not only safe runs by throwing out people but also by keeping feet planted. of course this part is hard to quantify but it might by worth as much or more than the actual assists.
    Go to a player's fielding page and look at held% and baseunner kills. Raw assists can be very misleading, you're correct.

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  • Death to Crawling Things
    replied
    One thing I will say about Manny Ramirez. His arm was most certainly the best part of his defense.

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  • Dude Paskert
    replied
    Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
    Don Bayor suffered a shoulder injury playing high school football, that ironically caused him to choose baseball over football. So a good armed Don Baylor, may have never played MLB ball, anyway.
    Riggs Stephenson also hurt his throwing arm playing football and could barely throw throughout his baseball career...I think he said it was very embarrassing to him because he had always been a good athlete, but he and his teams just had to accept that he couldn't throw the ball and deal with it if he was going to play.

    Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
    Did you mention that Manny played RF in Cleveland and LF in Boston? I think that might make a difference.
    Not many people remember that Ted Williams played RF his rookie year and wasn't a 100% LFer until after WWII...he also was a pitcher in high school and threw a couple of innings in '40. Ted racked up 11 assists from RF in '39, along with an even more impressive 19 errors (.945 FP in the OF)!!! Ted broke his elbow and collarbone early in the '50s, and I think his throwing arm was toast after those injuries.

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  • Dude Paskert
    replied
    Originally posted by csh19792001 View Post
    Damon had the worst arm I've ever seen. I remember him struggling to get the ball to second base from the middle of the outfield and center.

    In 17750 innings, 1391 players attempted to take the extra base on him. He throughout a grand total of 26 players over 2000 career games in the outfield.

    Does anyone in modern history (post WWII) have a weaker arm?
    Bernie Williams and Johnny Damon had an epic CF lob off in the '04 ALCS.

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  • brett
    replied
    Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
    Aside from the factors I mentioned, which I know you're well aware of...perhaps the biggest factor is ballpark. For the most part, they probably cancel each other out over time, just like the other things.

    However, when we have an extreme, like left field in Fenway, it's glaring. I have no doubt that Williams' was a circus on the road and that Fenway gave him a huge cushion.

    We don't have home/road numbers for this held/kill thing but for a guy like Manny, we can use his Cleveland years vs Fenway years to get an idea.

    Manny, single with runner on second....

    As Indian 251/74/7

    As Red Sock 256/117/11

    So in just five more chances, he holds 43 more runners and kills four more. This is a younger, more athletic Manny in Cleveland, as opposed to the aging one with the huge cushion behind him, playing shallow, less territory to cover. And he "performs" much better. Do we really believe he got that much better with age?

    Or better said, playing left in Fenway aided him, just like it did Ballgame.

    Manny held 29.4% of runners as an Indian and held 45.7% as a Sock. So essentially, we can say that Fenway gave him a 16.3% "boost" in this stat.

    Consider that Ballgame had 18 full seasons with half his games in front of a cushion.

    His single w/ runner on second is 465/100/8. That 100/465 "held" number is 21.5%. After the assumed boost is factored in, we're talkin' 5.2% held. That would be about 24 out of 465 in a more neutral environment, to put that into perspective.

    I know that method has flaws, just like these held/kill numbers but it gives an idea

    SabrMatt and I speculated that in addition to parks affecting hold rates, a big park also forced outfielders to back up to cut off gap hits-something that is hard to reconstruct statistically. We were talking about Dimaggio and that while he was sabermetrically "good" he may have saved nearly twice as many runs considering the conditions of his park. Putouts and assists go down, but potential doubles (and triples) reduced by one base far more important. In fact with all the offensive and defensive adjustments, and even deducting batting for not having to face his staff, Dimaggio comes out to 87 adjusted total war in 1736 games. That's 8.1 per 162 which is way up there. And while Williams didn't benefit in terms of WAR hitting from his park, it probably saved him a chunk of runs fielding.

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  • PVNICK
    replied
    Did you mention that Manny played RF in Cleveland and LF in Boston? I think that might make a difference.

    Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
    Aside from the factors I mentioned, which I know you're well aware of...perhaps the biggest factor is ballpark. For the most part, they probably cancel each other out over time, just like the other things.

    However, when we have an extreme, like left field in Fenway, it's glaring. I have no doubt that Williams' was a circus on the road and that Fenway gave him a huge cushion.

    We don't have home/road numbers for this held/kill thing but for a guy like Manny, we can use his Cleveland years vs Fenway years to get an idea.

    Manny, single with runner on second....

    As Indian 251/74/7

    As Red Sock 256/117/11

    So in just five more chances, he holds 43 more runners and kills four more. This is a younger, more athletic Manny in Cleveland, as opposed to the aging one with the huge cushion behind him, playing shallow, less territory to cover. And he "performs" much better. Do we really believe he got that much better with age?

    Or better said, playing left in Fenway aided him, just like it did Ballgame.

    Manny held 29.4% of runners as an Indian and held 45.7% as a Sock. So essentially, we can say that Fenway gave him a 16.3% "boost" in this stat.

    Consider that Ballgame had 18 full seasons with half his games in front of a cushion.

    His single w/ runner on second is 465/100/8. That 100/465 "held" number is 21.5%. After the assumed boost is factored in, we're talkin' 5.2% held. That would be about 24 out of 465 in a more neutral environment, to put that into perspective.

    I know that method has flaws, just like these held/kill numbers but it gives an idea

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  • Death to Crawling Things
    replied
    I read somewhere that Don Baylor was the only player to appear in 500 games in the OF without every being part of a DP. And all others in 500 games got at least 2 occasions.

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  • Yankillaz
    replied
    Bernie Williams.

    Sent from my LG-E976 using Tapatalk

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  • JR Hart
    replied
    Originally posted by Herr28 View Post
    "Don Baylor has a parachute arm. Every time he throws a ball it arcs so high it comes down with frost on it." Cliff Keane, broadcaster
    Don Bayor suffered a shoulder injury playing high school football, that ironically caused him to choose baseball over football. So a good armed Don Baylor, may have never played MLB ball, anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sultan_1895-1948
    replied
    Right field numbers only, less than 2 outs, runner on third, flyout.

    Some names you wouldn't expect.

    Code:
    Held %
    
    Mondesi      34.0
    Oliva        33.0
    Parker       31.4
    Furillo      31.2
    Ichiro       30.7
    Winfield     30.6
    Aaron        30.1
    Abreau       29.5
    Evans        29.3
    Colavito     29.0
    Walker       28.8
    Vlad         28.7
    Barfield     28.5
    Canseco      27.7
    FHoward      27.2
    O'Neill      26.5
    Buhner       25.5
    Clemente     25.3
    Justice      25.2
    RJackson     24.8
    Bonilla      24.6
    Sosa         24.2
    MOrdonez     22.9
    Kearns       21.5
    FRobinson    18.8
    Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 04-29-2014, 06:53 PM.

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  • brett
    replied
    Originally posted by csh19792001 View Post
    I can't believe I'm saying this, Brett, but that actually sounds nearly as epic as Manny "cutting off" Damon's throw in short left center field that time!!!

    Brett, conversely, who has the best outfield arm stats: since World War 2 ?? Kills, holds, assist/flyball ratio?

    (You might notice that any statistical question I throw out to you before any of the dozens of others here. I have learned, and have learned. to appreciate statistics more from you and anyone else in my 12 year,10000 post Odyssey on this site.)
    If I go with everything I've seen with my eyes, in stats, and in opinions, the best outfield arm of all time is Jesse Barfield. Chris 538280 rated him #1, and Bill had him in his top 10. Plus this early throwing sabermetric:

    THR+ (stat in Baseball Encyclopedia which is supposed to give an accurate measure of a player's throwing ability)

    Barfield-176
    Guerrero-131
    Evans-103
    Ichiro-103
    Parker-101
    Winfield-92

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