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  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Thank, BigRon. And I think that's fair. We all have our own views of things, and that's as it should be. I just enjoy the friendly sparring and give-and-take of sports talk. I don't give my soul to this. This is merely my fun. My hobby. Shooting the breezes with a lot of nice people who read baseball books when we were young and still enjoy talking over who we thinks to be ranked where.

    My hat's off to you for being able to discuss and disagree in such an agreeable way, BigRon. THAT'S what this is all about. And what I'm talkin' bout.

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  • BigRon
    replied
    Originally posted by Bill Burgess View Post
    Thanks, BigRon for your moderate posting. I'm getting past the days when I'd over-heat and post testy or surly. I just want friendly sparring at this point.

    To address your good points, I think that the big thing, as it seems to me, is that the baseball world in the 1920's went by very different values and criteria than we do. Today, we go by the numbers. They did not. I don't think that their 'Holy Grail' was BA, but overall performance. By that I mean how well a player put all the different elements together, without discernable weaknesses.

    For hitting, then yes, they did over-rate BA, but they really wanted a man who could hit well, field well and run credibly. They might take off some points if one ran alright but not blazing, like Heilmann.

    The kids today would never accept their values. The kids today are all raised on Bill James, Rob Neyer, Tom Tango, John Thorn, Craig Wright, Total Baseball & Baseball Reference. All the non-stat writers are read, but from a recreational perspective. For enjoyment and fun. So, I attribute the varying degrees of praise for George Sisler a function of differnet era values.

    Those like myself are considered too innocent, too-childlike, to satisfy the kids raised on numbers. They consider the stats like DNA, and eye-witnesses, well, eye-witnesses. To unreliable, too subjective and prone to human emotion. East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet.
    Well, Bill, I'm an in betweener, and I think that's where the best answers often lie. I DO pay attention to what peers, opponents, scribes of the time said. And I also try to view their comments through a second prism, one that understands the values of some things that weren't paid attention to/well understood a long time ago. There's merit- quite a bit, in fact- to what some of the modern stat heads are up to. But, the good ones understand that there is so much more to the game than numbers on a spreadsheet. Some of the stat types here at BBF understand that very well, and some don't. That's the way the world works.

    In any case, I look much more kindly upon George Sisler than does Bill James. But, I don't view him the way you do. I see him as somewhere around the 15th greatest 1Ber, give or take a couple of places, and somewhere around the 100th greatest position player- probably just a bit outside that point. You've got your opinion, and I've got mine. I doubt either one of us will change.

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  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Originally posted by BigRon View Post
    Bill, thanks for the lengthy defense of Sisler- rnjoyable reading. however, I'm familiar with just about everything you posted and remain essentially unmoved. There's no doubt that Sisler was a great player for 5 or so years, but even then his greatness, in my opinion, was slightly ovestated or overjudged. I'm not going to turn this into a "your stats are stupid and mine are great' thing. I just feel that Sisler had a short peak as a great player (due to injury, but those are the breaks, unfortunately), his relatively moderate power in an emerging power era further diluted his "greatness', and his lack of walks further contributed to a dilution of his offensive contributions. Concerning testimony from peers, remember- back then, BA was the holy grail- it was just about everything. The nuances of value of other components of offense often weren't understood very well.

    Concerning defense, Sisler's data and reputation remain a bit at odds. And, i don't know wherer you got Bill James' defensive Win Shares numbers. I have them in front of me- yours are not correct, even though it's not a particularly big deal.
    Thanks, BigRon for your moderate posting. I'm getting past the days when I'd over-heat and post testy or surly. I just want friendly sparring at this point.

    To address your good points, I think that the big thing, as it seems to me, is that the baseball world in the 1920's went by very different values and criteria than we do. Today, we go by the numbers. They did not. I don't think that their 'Holy Grail' was BA, but overall performance. By that I mean how well a player put all the different elements together, without discernable weaknesses.

    For hitting, then yes, they did over-rate BA, but they really wanted a man who could hit well, field well and run credibly. They might take off some points if one ran alright but not blazing, like Heilmann.

    The kids today would never accept their values. The kids today are all raised on Bill James, Rob Neyer, Tom Tango, John Thorn, Craig Wright, Total Baseball & Baseball Reference. All the non-stat writers are read, but from a recreational perspective. For enjoyment and fun. So, I attribute the varying degrees of praise for George Sisler a function of differnet era values.

    Those like myself are considered too innocent, too-childlike, to satisfy the kids raised on numbers. They consider the stats like DNA, and eye-witnesses, well, eye-witnesses. To unreliable, too subjective and prone to human emotion. East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet.

    Leave a comment:


  • BigRon
    replied
    Originally posted by Bill Burgess View Post
    Since you brought up the subject of Sisler's defense, I thought I'd show this chart. We once had a member, Matt Souders, who created a PCA stat system which interestingly, measured defense as well as offense. One of the things he showed was that a player's defense went up and down like his hitting. And Sisler's defense was really good during his peak but suffered badly after 1923, his year off. I thought that was revealing. You can judge for yourself.

    PCA--Win Shares---TPR,
    Code:
    ---------PCA GG*-------WinSh**----TPR***---Bl Ink-------Gr Ink
    1915 - 13 (Pipp)--------0.8--------10---------0-----------0
    1916 - 3 (Pipp)---------1.7--------25---------0----------22
    1917 - 7 (Pipp)---------3.5--------29---------0----------13
    1918 - [B][COLOR=Red]1[/COLOR][/B]  --------------[B][COLOR=Red]4.6-[/COLOR][/B]-------22---------2----------18
    1919 - 3 (Pipp)---------3.9--------24---------0----------26
    1920 - [B][COLOR=Red]1[/COLOR][/B]  --------------7.6--------33---------9----------25
    1921 - 4 (McInnis)------2.7--------27---------3----------26
    1922 - 8 (Sheely)-------[B][COLOR=Red]5.2[/COLOR][/B]--------29--------13----------22
    
    1923 - INJ-----------------inactive-------------
    1924 - 7 (Judge)------ -3.0--------11---------0----------11
    1925 - 4 (Blue)------  -0.5--------19---------0-----------9
    1926 - 9 (Todt)------  -3.4--------11---------0-----------2
    1927 - 8 (Todt)------  -1.1--------16---------2----------11
    1928 - 6 (Bissonette)---0.6---------0---------0-----------4
    1929 - 10 (Kelly)----   1.3--------15---------0-----------5
    1930 - 9 (Terry)-----  -1.8--------18---------0-----------0
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    -----------------------17.8-------292--------28---------194
    
    PCA* = Mathew Souder's PCA stat Gold Glove system
    WinSh** = Bill James' Win Shares 
    TPR*** = Total Baseball's Total Player Rating
    Bill, thanks for the lengthy defense of Sisler- rnjoyable reading. however, I'm familiar with just about everything you posted and remain essentially unmoved. There's no doubt that Sisler was a great player for 5 or so years, but even then his greatness, in my opinion, was slightly ovestated or overjudged. I'm not going to turn this into a "your stats are stupid and mine are great' thing. I just feel that Sisler had a short peak as a great player (due to injury, but those are the breaks, unfortunately), his relatively moderate power in an emerging power era further diluted his "greatness', and his lack of walks further contributed to a dilution of his offensive contributions. Concerning testimony from peers, remember- back then, BA was the holy grail- it was just about everything. The nuances of value of other components of offense often weren't understood very well.

    Concerning defense, Sisler's data and reputation remain a bit at odds. And, i don't know wherer you got Bill James' defensive Win Shares numbers. I have them in front of me- yours are not correct, even though it's not a particularly big deal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Originally posted by BigRon View Post
    He was a good baserunner. As a fielder, it's less certain. Some feel he was outstanding, others say he was pretty average.
    Since you brought up the subject of Sisler's defense, I thought I'd show this chart. We once had a member, Matt Souders, who created a PCA stat system which interestingly, measured defense as well as offense. One of the things he showed was that a player's defense went up and down like his hitting. And Sisler's defense was really good during his peak but suffered badly after 1923, his year off. I thought that was revealing. You can judge for yourself.

    PCA--Win Shares---TPR,
    Code:
    ---------PCA GG*-------WinSh**----TPR***---Bl Ink-------Gr Ink
    1915 - 13 (Pipp)--------0.8--------10---------0-----------0
    1916 - 3 (Pipp)---------1.7--------25---------0----------22
    1917 - 7 (Pipp)---------3.5--------29---------0----------13
    1918 - [B][COLOR=Red]1[/COLOR][/B]  --------------[B][COLOR=Red]4.6-[/COLOR][/B]-------22---------2----------18
    1919 - 3 (Pipp)---------3.9--------24---------0----------26
    1920 - [B][COLOR=Red]1[/COLOR][/B]  --------------7.6--------33---------9----------25
    1921 - 4 (McInnis)------2.7--------27---------3----------26
    1922 - 8 (Sheely)-------[B][COLOR=Red]5.2[/COLOR][/B]--------29--------13----------22
    
    1923 - INJ-----------------inactive-------------
    1924 - 7 (Judge)------ -3.0--------11---------0----------11
    1925 - 4 (Blue)------  -0.5--------19---------0-----------9
    1926 - 9 (Todt)------  -3.4--------11---------0-----------2
    1927 - 8 (Todt)------  -1.1--------16---------2----------11
    1928 - 6 (Bissonette)---0.6---------0---------0-----------4
    1929 - 10 (Kelly)----   1.3--------15---------0-----------5
    1930 - 9 (Terry)-----  -1.8--------18---------0-----------0
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    -----------------------17.8-------292--------28---------194
    
    PCA* = Mathew Souder's PCA stat Gold Glove system
    WinSh** = Bill James' Win Shares 
    TPR*** = Total Baseball's Total Player Rating
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 03-07-2012, 08:21 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Originally posted by BigRon View Post
    I'll also say that Sisler at 62 is quite a bit too high. I'm not a Sisler maligner like Bill James, but I feel strongly that he's somewhere in the 15 range alltime at 1B- maybe a spot or 2 higher, maybe a spot or 2 lower. That probably would place him somewhere a bit outside the top 100 position players.

    Sisler was a brilliant hitter for 5 or 6 years, but then was undone by an eye injury. Afterwards, he put up some pretty good looking BAs, but in a high BA era. He also showed declining power, and he was never a real power guy to begin with. He didn't walk a lot, so almost all of his offensive value came from his batting average. He was a good baserunner. As a fielder, it's less certain. Some feel he was outstanding, others say he was pretty average.

    I'm in the camp that says there were at least 100 position players who should be ranked ahead of Sisler.
    Well, I may be sentimental, but I do realize Sisler will continue to polarize the house. I can't let this pass without posting my traditional defense of the Sizzler.

    Introducing George Harold Sisler:----------BB Reference

    Born: March 24, 1894, Manchester, OH,
    Died: March 23, 1973, Richmond Heights, MO,

    St. Louis Browns, 1B, 1915-1927, Washington Senators 1B, 1928, Boston Braves 1B, 1928-30
    St. Louis Browns manager, 1924-26
    Boston Braves coach, 1930
    Brooklyn Dodgers' scout, 1943-1950, Pittsburgh Pirates scout, 1951-1973, his death.

    From around 1917, Sisler was touted as the natural next successor to Cobb by a great number of people. Like Ruth, he started out as a good pitcher, but his hitting forced his conversion to a position player way before Ruth. Sisler was greater than Hornsby earlier. He was brilliant at first, and only Chase out-fielded him. Hornsby started as a SS and converted to 2nd, presumably because he couldn't catch a pop-up behind him.

    To be concise, Sisler was seen as the Greatest Player in BB from 1920-1922. Many articles in Sporting News and Baseball Magazine in my files confirm this. Sisler and Hornsby were great cross-town rivals, and admired each other greatly. On the open market at the time, Sisler commanded the higher trade price. Hornsby was perceived as #2, after Sisler, until he developed eye problems, which he never recovered 100% from.

    I am basing my rating on peak value only. At their best, Sisler outplayed and out-classed Rogers in the field, on the bases, and in the dugout. Rogers was way too unnecessarily blunt and this hurts team cohesion and morale. And while Hornsby's owners kept peddling him off, before 1923, trading Sisler was unthinkable. Branch Rickey turned down something like $350K for him. After 1923, Hornsby was the much better player.

    In another thread, someone blasted me for putting Sisler on my all-time team, and Gehrig on my B team. I've included my defense to that comparison below. Hornsby did have more pop, but I don't know if the Sizzler wouldn't have upped his power numbers if his eyes didn't go bad on him.

    Perhaps another measurement of how they were perceived in their day is the Hall of Fame vote. Here it is;
    --------------------------Sisler------------Hornsby
    1936,Feb.2----------- 77 (34%)---------105 (46%)
    1937,Jan.20---------106 (52%)-----------53 (26%)
    1938,Jan.19---------179 (68%)-----------46 (17%)
    1939,Jan.25---------235 (85%)elected---176 (64%)
    1942,Jan.21--------------------------------182 (.78%)elected

    Many people who had seen Sisler from 1918-1922, never forgot him and always rated him up with Ruth, Cobb, and Wagner. I probably haven't convinced you, but he was such an intense, competitive, complete all-round player, that I can't rate him lower than Hornsby, who couldn't catch a pop fly.


    I've taken a lot of heat for my choice of Sisler for a long time. But he personifies my type of player over Lou.

    I won't knock Lou in defense of George because,
    1. You can't knock Lou.
    2. I like him and put him on my B team.

    One thing I can say by way of explanation is that I'm comparing them for peak value, not career. And there are many things to be said for The Sizzler that are not obvious.

    1. He was the greatest defensive 1B in BB history, after Hal Chase on an honest day.
    2. He led his league in SB 4 times.
    3. In 1922, he was 1st in the ML in TPR, with 6.3.
    4. In 1920, he finished 2nd behind Ruth in HRs with 19, in 1919 he finished in a 3way tie for 2nd in HRs with 10.
    5. In 1920, he led Ruth in total bases, 399 to 388, despite Ruth's 54 HRs to George's 19.

    You may not be aware of it, but for the 1919-1922 period, Sisler, and NOT Ruth was considered the Greatest Player in the game. This was the opinion of such people as Christy Mathewson and Ferdinand C. Lane, long-time editor-in-chief of Baseball Magazine from 1912-1937, Branch Rickey, Bob Quinn, and many others.

    In terms of support, I'll concede you that Gehrig gets the majority of the big names. But Gorgeous George is not completely without big name support of his own.

    In my file, "position players", I have Lou with 50 prominent baseball figures putting him on their all time teams, and George has 44.

    Included in Lou's supporters are, with the yr. of their selection:
    McGraw (1931), Joe McCarthy (1938), John B. Foster (long time editor of Spalding Guide, (1912-41), chose Lou in spring, 1938, Dan Daniel(1944), Connie Mack (1950), Jimmy Dykes (1967), Fred Lieb (1977), Bill James (2002), Charlie Gehringer (1987), Bill Dickey (1987), Shirley Povich (1997).

    Included in Sisler's supporters are: Ban Johnson (1929), Bucky Harris (1931), Muddy Ruel (1942), Grantland Rice (1945), Red Smith (1950), Eddie Collins (1950), Max Carey (1950), J. Roy Stockton (1952), Frank 'Home Run' Baker (1955), Ty Cobb (1961), Mcikey Cochrane (1961), Rogers Hornsby (1962), Branch Rickey (1965), Leonard Koppett (1969), Bob Shawkey (1977), Bob Broeg (1998).

    So it is clear from this distinguished roster, that the case is anything but clear. So what caused so many sober men to choose Sisler over Lou? Perhaps they saw deeper into the equation than later day observers.

    One thing is clear. Some of Lou's stats are hyper-inflated due to his close proximity to the Babe. Ruth was almost always on base, and Lou had many more runners to hit in than Sisler, who played on the lowly Browns, who in their entire history, have the dubious distinction, of being the only team in ML history to have NEVER won a World Series. In fact, they only made it to the WS in '44 and lost to cross town rivals, the Cards. Lou, being on MUCH better teams, was always in a much better position for runs and RBIs. So I look upon his super-human productivity and realize, he played in a premium scoring era. In the context of his era, Lou's productivity wasn't out of line. Other players were putting up numbers very comparable to his. Foxx, Greenberg, Hack Wilson, Hornsby, DiMag, Al Simmons, all were turning out RBI seasons above 150, year after year. And the others weren't on as good teams as Lou was. So his era, his great teams, and of course his own great talent explain his great numbers.

    In 1938, Joe McCarthy sentimentally chose Gehrig as his selection of the Greatest Ever player. Everyone smiled. No one took him seriously. In 1944, J. Roy Stockton, long time St. Louis sports writer and editor, named Sisler as HIS Greatest Ever ballplayer. Once again, everyone smiled. No one took him seriously. Detroit fans were not amused, or maybe perhaps they were. Who's to say?

    In his revised Historical Abstract, Bill James dropped Sisler from his top 100, along with Bill Terry. However, in his first edition, he said, (pp. 349), "As to peak value, the choice between Sisler and Gehrig is not so simple,. . . It is possible that given a more careful consideration of defense and baserunning, given that it might later be established that Gehrig's superhuman RBI totals were a natural outcome of his productivity and position in the lineup, I might switch to Sisler." Wow. The MAN said that?!!

    Another problem I have is with the numbers you showed. To directly compare stats in 1920 - 1922 with 1927 - 1938, is not real. Not all runs or RBIs are created equal. You're showing the raw, naked numbers, which shouldn't be done. Until they are processed and indexed to the league averages, they are "cooked". It's like comparing 1908 with 1930. We just can't do that and feel righteous about ourselves. It isn't fair to Sisler or to you & me. Was Greenberg a greater slugger than Mantle or Musial, cause he sure buried them when it comes to RBIs? He even hit more HRs in a season than them. Numbers are relative until they are indexed.

    Well, unfortunately for George, The Man went the other way, and demoted him. Well, this isn't the first time that the notorious Mr. James and I have parted ways in important baseball matters.

    While it is true that George Sisler's peak, 1920-22, is all too brief, while there, he blazed like a white-hot super-nova. In 1920, although he led the AL in only BA. (.407), and Hits (257 - still the ML record), he also posted the following stats. However, I thought it might be more interesting to display them in contrast with those of the Babe for the same year - 1920.

    Code:
    Name----age--G---PA---AB---Outs--RC--Runs--H--2B--3B--HR--RBI---TB--BB--SO---BA----OBP---SLG--OPS+-SB---CS---SB%-SH--HBP
    Sisler--27--[B]154[/B]--[B]692[/B]--[B]631[/B]--404--178--137--[B]257[/B]-[B]49[/B]--[B]18[/B]--19--122--[B]399[/B]--46--[B]19[/B]--.[B]407[/B]--.449--.632--179--[B]42[/B]---17---[B]71[/B]--[B]15[/B]---2
    Ruth----25--142--616--458--[B]305[/B]--[B]205[/B]--[B]158[/B]--172-36---9--[B]54[/B]--[B]137[/B]--388-[B]150[/B]--80--.376--.[B]532[/B]--.[B]847[/B]--[B]252[/B]--14---14---50---5---[B]3[/B]
    Name------FR*--TPR**------(home SLG------away SLG)
    Sisler------13---7.8----------(.760-------------.503) Away SLG. is 66% of Home SLG.
    Ruth--------0---9.1----------(.985------------.736) Away SLG. Is 74% of Home SLG.
    *FR=Fielding Runs, **TPR=Total Player Rating from Total Baseball

    Moreover, besides the above record, George has more. He played every inning of league time, led the league in assists, and went hitless in only 23 games. That a so-called singles hitter could hang so close to a mighty slugger, in one of that slugger's mightiest seasons, shows that perhaps that singles hitter isn't so power puny after all. And add to that record, being the greatest defensive 1Bman in the MLs, and a league-leading base stealer, and you start to perceive why the BB world considered Sisler the better and more valuable player in the game, from 1920 - 1922. He did win the MVP in 1922. George fanned only 327 times in his 15 yr. career.

    Here is a little quote about Sisler from Eddie Collins, from Sporting News, Nov. 8, 1950, pp. 14.
    "I've seen some great players in the game, as I have stated before, and the greatest of them all, in my estimation, was Ty Cobb. But ranking close behind him was George Sisler. Sisler came as near to approaching, of even eclipsing, Cobb as any player ..…There were some great players in my era, and Sisler ranked with the greatest. I've heard it said many times that Cobb and Ruth ranked alone. I think Sisler ought to be included with them at the very top of the heap." (Sporting News, November 8, 1950, pp. 14)

    So that was Collins quote. Perhaps it might have been because both Sisler an Collins were so exactly the same kind of player. Both had idolized the amazing Ty Cobb and had based their own style of playing baseball on Cobb's style. In 1922, George broke one of his idols records.

    He hit safely in 41 consecutive games, breaking by one Ty Cobb's 1911 record. And George was injured for 2 games at the end in doing it. He was so highly thought of at that moment, that his team refused over $200,000. for his contract. Some say the figure was $350,000. But it is known that Sisler's market value, like Hornsby's, were easily in the same category as Ruth's, although today, one wouldn't know it, to judge from their lack of Ruth's fame.

    Sisler's Power Case:
    George did hit a lot of singles, that's true. And it is also true that that's how he was perceived, both then & now. And that's fair & accurate.

    But Sizzler posted quite excellent power numbers during his all-too-brief "peak".
    Code:
    1917 - 4th SLG., TB, OBP
    1918 - 4th OBP, SLG.---5th TB
    1919 - 2nd HR, SLG.---3rd TB
    1920 - 1st TB, 2nd HR, SLG., RBIs---3rd OBP
    1921 - 5th SLG., TB
    1922 - 2nd TB---4th RBIs---5th SLG.

    So, before we be hasty, and relegate The Sizzler to the "singles only" category of Boggs/Gwynn/Fox/Waner/Keeler type of hitter, let's hold up & see if the stereo-type actually applies here. And it doesn't.

    Special NOTE:
    In 1920, Sisler hit 19 homers to Ruth's 54, so Georgie boy got no PR for power. If he had hit that many only the year before, Ruth would have had some competition for PR/hype, since he created a hysteria by hitting 29.

    One assumes Hornsby had better power than Sizzler.

    But Sizzler led Hornsby in SLG. % in 1918 by 24 points,
    -----------------------------------1919 by 100 points,
    -----------------------------------1920 by 73 points.
    He also led Rogers in HRs in 1919-1920.

    So, while Rogers, ultimately did have more power overall, I don't think we should assume that George Sisler had NO power to speak of.

    In his times, he was considered a quite balanced power guy, like Aaron/Clemente in later times. A guy who could hold up his end without huffing & puffing. In fact, before 1923, his power was not thought of as behind Rogers, but his full equal in power, & Rogers was what I consider the ULTIMATE balanced power hitter ever. I am fully informed that that perception was altered in 1922, when Rogers broke through to the next level with his 42 HRs.

    But how do we know, that George might not have risen to the occasion and upped HIS game, if not for the eye problems? All debate stops after that. George wasn't the same guy. But for his brief peak . . .
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    PCA--Win Shares---TPR,
    Code:
    ---------PCA GG*-------WinSh**----TPR***---Bl Ink-------Gr Ink
    1915 - 13 (Pipp)--------0.8--------10---------0-----------0
    1916 - 3 (Pipp)---------1.7--------25---------0----------22
    1917 - 7 (Pipp)---------3.5--------29---------0----------13
    1918 - [B][COLOR=Red]1[/COLOR][/B]  --------------[B][COLOR=Red]4.6-[/COLOR][/B]-------22---------2----------18
    1919 - 3 (Pipp)---------3.9--------24---------0----------26
    1920 - [B][COLOR=Red]1[/COLOR][/B]  --------------7.6--------33---------9----------25
    1921 - 4 (McInnis)------2.7--------27---------3----------26
    1922 - 8 (Sheely)-------[B][COLOR=Red]5.2[/COLOR][/B]--------29--------13----------22
    
    1923 - INJ-----------------inactive-------------
    1924 - 7 (Judge)------ -3.0--------11---------0----------11
    1925 - 4 (Blue)------  -0.5--------19---------0-----------9
    1926 - 9 (Todt)------  -3.4--------11---------0-----------2
    1927 - 8 (Todt)------  -1.1--------16---------2----------11
    1928 - 6 (Bissonette)---0.6---------0---------0-----------4
    1929 - 10 (Kelly)----   1.3--------15---------0-----------5
    1930 - 9 (Terry)-----  -1.8--------18---------0-----------0
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    -----------------------17.8-------292--------28---------194
    
    PCA* = Mathew Souder's PCA stat Gold Glove system
    WinSh** = Bill James' Win Shares 
    TPR*** = Total Baseball's Total Player Rating
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In 1931, George Sisler chose his all-time all-star team for Baseball Magazine.

    -------------------The Greatest Players I Ever Saw-------------------------------

    An All-Star Team of Baseball's Best Performers as They Appeared to the Keen Eye and Shrewd Judgment of a Veteran Who Was Himself, A Super-Star
    ------------------Comprising an Interview with GEORGE SISLER-------------
    ------------------Baseball Magazine, April, 1931, pp. 483, 484


    George Sisler in reminiscent mood, recently picked an all-star team of the greatest players he had ever seen. His views are interesting because Sisler was always a close, keen student of the game. And they carry weight because he was, himself, a member of that little group of super-stars who stood at the pinnacle of their profession.

    Modesty forbade Sisler to set forth any claims for himself as the star first baseman. But when we consider his amazing batting feats, his brilliant base-running, his kinship with the highest genius of the diamond is evident enough.

    Sisler said, "Hal Chase had passed his prime before I ever put on a major league uniform. He also spent his decline days in the National League. I saw Chase only in a game or two and was not particularly impressed with his work. No doubt he deserved his great reputation, but I should not feel competent to pass an opinion on any player unless I saw him perform before my own eyes.

    "Bill Terry, of the Giants, on the remarkable showing he made last year, stands out in my memory as the pick of all first basemen I have known. Terry's batting speaks for itself. He hit .401 and that failed to tell the story. Terry is a slashing line-drive hitter and the Polo Grounds doesn't favor his style a bit. Out-fielders lay for Terry and spoil many a safe hit for him.

    In the field Terry is fast and mechanically a great performer. There are a few minor defects about his work, but he seems to realize them and worked hard last season to overcome them. Undoubtedly he's the greatest first baseman in the game. (Author's note: By 1954, he had replaced Terry with Gehrig, on his all time team.)

    "At second base Lajoie was also passing when I broke in. I recall his beautifully graceful fielding and his forceful hitting. He had slowed up somewhat, however, and didn't seem to cover much ground. Unfortunately, I did not see him in his prime.

    "A number of fine second basemen have appeared. In recent years. Frank Frisch is one, although he has a tendency to fumble the ball, which mars his work, in my opinion. Hugh Critz is a brilliant fielder, though possibly somewhat overrated. He is particularly good on ground covering.

    "Hornsby has one or two weaknesses. He doesn't shine in going back after pop flies. But he has the best throw to first base that I ever saw. And he's also a good man on double plays. Hornsby was never a base-stealer, but he's really a great base-runner. His speed has never been recognized by the public, but he was phenomenally fast, in his prime. As a hitter, Hornsby stands out. He is doubtless the greatest hitter the National League has produced since the days of Hans Wagner, if not beyond.

    "I would rate Hornsby somewhat above Eddie Collins, with due respect to Collins' all round ability. Collins was a better base-stealer, but I wouldn't say that he was a better base-runner than Hornsby. Collins was also a clever fielder, though his work impressed me as somewhat erratic. And he was, of course, a good hitter. But Hornsby's long range hitting far excelled anything that Collins ever showed, and I would prefer him on all round form at second base."

    My selection of shortstop may appear odd to some people, for I think Glenn Wright is the best shortstop I ever saw. He always did impress me favorably. The only other shortstop I'd rank in his class is Travis Jackson and I think Wright was the better of the two. In his prime he had the greatest throwing arm I ever saw. He covered all kinds of ground and he was a much better hitter than people think. He was a hard hitter and he showed to advantage in the pinch. In fact, he was just the kind of player you want, a fellow who does his best work when you need it.

    "There were a number of famous shortstops in the American League, Deacon Scott perhaps the most so. Scott had a sure throw to first base, but he was a weak hitter and didn't cover the ground that some shortstops do. Wright is my pick for the position.

    "At third base I have never seen a player who equaled Pie Traynor, of Pittsburgh. And I do not believe that his superior ever lived. Pie has everything, a rangy build, a great throwing arm, a sure pair of hands, a baseball sense and much more than average ability at bat. In fact, he is a long, dangerous hitter. Pie wasn't so good last season because of defective eyesight and other troubles. Lindstrom had a better year. And Lindstrom is a great third baseman, also, though I wouldn't rank him quite in Traynor's class.

    "In the outfield Babe Ruth belongs on any man's team. Babe is doubtless the most dangerous slugger that ever lived. And that would insure him a position in the outfield, where batting punch is so important. But that doesn't express Babe's talents. He's really a great outfielder, one of the greatest. He plays batters correctly, covers a lot more ground than you'd think he'd be able to do with his bulk, and has one of the deadliest throwing arms ever known. Besides, Babe has an accurate baseball judgment and never throws to the wrong base.

    "Tris Speaker belongs on an all-star outfield. Speaker was a wonderful hitter, a good base-runner and a marvelous fielder. There seems a general impression that he was the greatest fielder who ever lived. Perhaps he was. He was certainly one of the best. And his all round ability makes him a second choice.

    "For third place you simply must make room for Ty Cobb. Ty was the most brilliant ballplayer baseball has produced, the most daring, the most spectacular. Ty was poison on the base-paths. He completely disrupted infield defense. At bat he always mixed mechanical ability with brains. He had the most versatile batting attack on record. I have publicly said many times that Ty was my own batting model, and he was. I tried to learn place hitting by watching him. No one that I ever heard of taught Ty how to bat. But dozens of players owe a good deal of their batting success to Ty's teaching.

    "In the outfield Ty was not supposed to be a star, but he always impressed me favorably.

    He was fast and could cover acres of ground. He certainly knew how to judge opposing batters as well as alone ever did.

    "But Ty's extraordinary batting and base-running threw his fielding into the shade. This didn't mean he wasn't a great outfielder. It meant that he was an even greater batter and base-runner.

    "On the hurling mound Walter Johnson, in his prime, is my choice. Unfortunately, I saw Grover Alexander only a few times. I can see how he might well have been preferred, even to Johnson. He had greater all round talents, though he lacked Johnson's blinding speed. In sheer mechanical ability, I doubt if Johnson ever had an equal.

    "You need more than one pitcher, however, and I'd make a place for Dazzy Vance. Vance has received a good deal of publicity from time to time. But at that I doubt if his ability has been as widely recognized as it deserves. Vance, at his best, had nearly as much sheer stuff as Walter Johnson. And he had a far better curve than Johnson ever knew. Vance's overhand curve, thrown with the full sweep of his powerful arm, is a terrifying object. I do not doubt for a moment that it breaks as much as three feet. It comes at you like a bullet, with a terrific down sweep. I do not believe Vance's overhand curve has ever been equaled.

    "Behind the plate I have vivid recollections of Ray Schalk, a great catcher. In fighting spirit, in generalship, in ability to handle pitchers, he was a marvelous performer. At bat, however, Schalk was not impressive.

    "Beyond a doubt, Gordon Cochrane, of the Athletics, is the greatest catcher I ever saw. Cochrane has fully as much fight as Schalk and just as much confidence in handling pitchers. Schalk was nimble and active. But I'd say Cochrane was even faster. And Cochrane is what Schalk never was, a great hitter.

    "They talk a great deal about Lefty Grove, Al Simmons and others, but Cochrane is the spark plug of the World's Champions." (Baseball Magazine, April, 1931, pp. 483-484, The Greatest Players I Ever Saw, Comprising an Interview with George Sisler)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1B is a demanding position, if one chooses to do it WELL.

    1. One must cover bunts.
    2. One must take sizzling liners down the line.
    3. One must hold the runners, and then take 2-3 steps towards second to narrow the hole, and still get back to your bag.
    4. With a man on 1st, on shots to the 1Bman, he must make sure his throw to 2nd, clears the runner, then must get back to his bag to receive his return throw.
    5. On hard shots to deep RF, he must position himself properly to take the relay throw, and swivel, and throw hard to home to cut off the run at the plate.
    6. A GOOD 1st baseman must learn to become proficient at digging bad throws out of the dirt.
    7. A GOOD 1st baseman must learn to decide instantly, whether to jump for a too-high throw, or retreat to go get the errored throw.
    8. On bunts fielded by your catcher, the 1st baseman must often pick the ball out of the air, even when it appears to come from behind the runner's head.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Any old player can play a mediocre 1st base. Only a good fielder can handle it WELL.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Cool Sisler anecdote.

    "In 1922, he was out to break a record hitting streak of mine--40 straight games--when he tore an arm muscle so badly that he could only play one-handed. Sisler couldn't lift his right hand high enough to catch any ball thrown to him above the waist. Even then, he had to lift his gloved hand with is other hand. 'Throw the ball to me low, boys,' he ordered the St. Louis Browns.

    What did he do? He didn't make an error in the next few games, and , swinging almost one-handed, broke my record by hitting safely in games No. 40 and 41." (My Life in Baseball, the True Record, by Ty Cobb with Al Stump, 1961, pp. 264.)

    Cobb might have also added that in game No. 40 of Sisler's streak, he was playing against the Tigers. Cobb was managing from Center Field, as a player/manager. Sisler had gone hitless up until his last at bat. If Manager Cobb ordered Sisler walked, he would have protected his record. Did Cobb order Sisler walked, to save his record? No. He didn't. But he did take the precaution of changing pitchers. And then he ordered his pitcher to pitch to Sisler. Sisler hit safely. But at least Cobb had the satisfaction of knowing that he had been a good sportsman, and given Sisler a fair chance to break his record.

    Leave a comment:


  • AstrosFan
    replied
    Campy wins it by a hair.

    Code:
    FirstName	LastName	First	Second	Third	Fourth	Fifth	Total
    Roy		Campanella	1	0	3	1	2	18
    Chipper		Jones		2	1	1	0	0	17
    Cool Papa	Bell		0	0	1	2	2	9
    Rod		Carew		0	0	1	2	2	9
    Craig		Biggio		0	1	1	0	1	8
    Tony		Gwynn		0	0	1	0	5	8
    Harry		Heilmann	1	0	1	0	0	8
    Eddie		Murray		1	0	0	1	1	8
    Bill		Dickey		1	0	0	1	0	7
    Derek		Jeter		0	0	2	0	1	7
    King		Kelly		1	0	0	1	0	7
    Harmon		Killebrew	0	1	0	1	1	7
    Gary		Carter		0	1	0	0	2	6
    Billy		Hamilton	0	0	2	0	0	6
    Gary		Sheffield	0	1	0	1	0	6
    Jim		Thome		0	1	0	1	0	6
    Tim		Raines		0	1	0	0	1	5
    Al		Simmons		0	1	0	0	1	5
    Jesse		Burkett		0	1	0	0	0	4
    Hughie		Jennings	0	1	0	0	0	4
    Paul		Molitor		0	0	0	2	0	4
    Carlton		Fisk		0	0	1	0	0	3
    Buck		Leonard		0	0	0	1	1	3
    Biz		Mackay		0	0	1	0	0	3
    Ryne		Sandberg	0	0	1	0	0	3
    Roberto		Alomar		0	0	0	1	0	2
    Luke		Appling		0	0	0	1	0	2
    Jim		Edmonds		0	0	0	1	0	2
    Mark		McGwire		0	0	0	1	0	2
    Ron		Santo		0	0	0	1	0	2
    Chino		Smith		0	0	0	1	0	2
    Pete		Browning	0	0	0	0	1	1
    Bill		Dahlen		0	0	0	0	1	1
    Barry		Larkin		0	0	0	0	1	1
    Santop		Loftin		0	0	0	0	1	1
    Sammy		Sosa		0	0	0	0	1	1
    Sam		Thompson	0	0	0	0	1	1
    Hack		Wilson		0	0	0	0	1	1

    Leave a comment:


  • BigRon
    replied
    One final boo from me on Sisler's election in Round 62.

    1. Roy Campanella
    2. Harmon killebrew
    3. Tony Gwynn
    4. Mark McGwire
    5. Al Simmons

    6. Eddie Murray
    7.Ryne Sandberg
    8. Chipper Jones
    9. Rod Carew
    10. Billy Hamilton

    Leave a comment:


  • BigRon
    replied
    I'll also say that Sisler at 62 is quite a bit too high. I'm not a Sisler maligner like Bill James, but I feel strongly that he's somewhere in the 15 range alltime at 1B- maybe a spot or 2 higher, maybe a spot or 2 lower. That probably would place him somewhere a bit outside the top 100 position players.

    Sisler was a brilliant hitter for 5 or 6 years, but then was undone by an eye injury. Afterwards, he put up some pretty good looking BAs, but in a high BA era. He also showed declining power, and he was never a real power guy to begin with. He didn't walk a lot, so almost all of his offensive value came from his batting average. He was a good baserunner. As a fielder, it's less certain. Some feel he was outstanding, others say he was pretty average.

    I'm in the camp that says there were at least 100 position players who should be ranked ahead of Sisler.

    Leave a comment:


  • BigRon
    replied
    I'll get to this and your other polls in a day or 2, Bill.

    Leave a comment:


  • PVNICK
    replied
    Dickey
    Al Simmons
    Hamilton
    Carew
    Murray

    Biggio
    Gary Carter
    King Kelly
    Roberto Alomar
    Killebrew

    SSs Jeter, Larkin, Trammell all will show up soon
    Gwynn will be next 11 and 12
    Campy, Molitor, Chipper Jones, maybe even Santo should be making appearances

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    Originally posted by pheasant View Post
    These are tough to vote on Bill. I've been crunching the numbers and it's very time consuming.
    Ha ha ha! That's the fun of it! I don't crunch anything except peanuts. I go with my gut. It's SO much easier.

    Leave a comment:


  • pheasant
    replied
    These are tough to vote on Bill. I've been crunching the numbers and it's very time consuming. I'm sure people will find errors in my list. If I spent more time on this, I'm sure I'd find plenty of errors on my own list. After all, it's tough to figure who the 63rd best player is.

    Here's my list in the following order:

    Chipper Jones 9048 PA, 144 OPS, 82.7 WAR

    Jim Thome, 10127, PA, 147 OPS, 71.4 WAR

    Harry Heilmann 8960 PA, 148 OPS, 69.4 WAR

    Gary Sheffield, 10940 PA, 140 ops+, 63.3 WAR

    Tony Gwynn, 10232, PA, 132 OPS, 68.4 WAR

    Mark Mcgwire,7660, PA, 162 OPS, 63.1 WAR

    Joe Jackson, 5690 PA, 169 OPS, 62.9 WAR

    Harmon Killebrew 9833 PA, 143 OPS, 61.1 WAR

    Dick Allen, 7315 PA, 156 OPS+, 61.2 WAR

    jeff kent, 9537 PA, 123 OPS, 59.4 WAR

    I took Mark Mcgwire at face value despite the steroids. Although Shoeless Joe had a very short career, I believe he had immense talent; potentially in the top 10 greatest hitters. I just don't see many people going to the Dead Ball era and outhitting Shoeless Joe. He could even be higher on this list if I thought about it more. And I would probably place a good chunk of these guys higher than the top 60.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    My next slate of candidates. Numbers following represent Bill James' 2001 rankings.

    Red = Negro Leagues
    Blue = 19th Century
    Bold = Active

    Mike 'King' Kelly - unranked, 32 among RF
    Hughie Jennings - unranked, 18th among SS

    Biz Mackay - unranked by Bill James
    Cool Papa Bell - 62

    Santop Loftin - unranked

    Coming Soon to a computer screen near you:

    Roy Campanella - 40
    Bill Dickey - unranked, 7th among catchers
    Gabby Hartnett - unranked, 9th among catchers
    Martin Dihigo - 78

    Might I persuade any of you guys to consider voting in our other polls?

    25th Greatest Hitter

    30th Greatest Pitcher

    Wagner/Mays?

    I would consider it a great favor if you did.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Burgess
    replied
    In the attempt to assist us, I have compiled the Top 100s of Bill James, myself and Sporting News.

    I color-coordinated the chart for easy eye recognition.

    Red = Negro Leagues
    Blue = 19th Century
    Bold-faced = already elected

    Bill James' Top 100, 2001-----Bill Burgess' Top 100-----Sporting News' Top 100, October, 1998.---Both James' list and Sporting News' lists are absent the full 100 due to their including pitchers in their lists, which I've removed, for our voting convenience.

    1. Babe Ruth----------------1. Ty Cobb---------------------1. Babe Ruth
    2. Honus Wagner-----------2. Honus Wagner--------------2. Willie Mays
    3. Willie Mays---------------3. Babe Ruth-------------------3. Ty Cobb
    4. Oscar Charleston---------4. Willie Mays-----------------4. Hank Aaron
    5. Ty Cobb------------------5. Oscar Charleston------------5. Lou Gehrig
    6. Mickey Mantle------------6. John Lloyd------------------6. Ted Williams
    7. Ted Williams-------------7. Tris Speaker-----------------7. Rogers Hornsby
    8. Josh Gibson--------------8. Rogers Hornsby-------------8. Stan Musial
    9. Stan Musial---------------9. Lou Gehrig--------------------9. Joe DiMaggio
    10. Tris Speaker------------10. Barry Bonds----------------10. Honus Wagner
    11. Henry Aaron-------------11. Eddie Collins--------------11. Jimmie Foxx
    12. Joe DiMaggio------------12. Stan Musial----------------12. Johnny Bench
    13. Lou Gerhig--------------13. Hank Aaron-----------------13. Mickey Mantle
    14. Joe Morgan--------------14. Joe DiMaggio---------------14. Josh Gibson
    15. Barry Bonds-------------15. Mickey Mantle
    --------------15. Roberto Clemente
    16. Eddie Collins------------16. Ted Williams-----------------16. Frank Robinson
    17 Mike Schmidt------------17. Nap Lajoie------------------17. Eddie Collins
    18 Rogers Hornsby---------18. Mike Schmidt
    ---------------18. Pete Rose
    19. Frank Robinson----------19. Alex Rodriguez-------------19. Tris Speaker
    20. Turkey Stearns----------20. Rickey Henderson----------20. Mike Schmidt
    21. Rickey Henderson--------21. Buck Ewing----------------21. Nap Lajoie
    22. Pop Lloyd---------------22. Josh Gibson
    -----------------22. George Sisler
    23. Mel Ott------------------23. Johnny Bench---------------23. Barry Bonds
    24. Jimmie Foxx-------------24. Jackie Robinson
    -----------24. Joe Jackson
    25. George Brett------------25. George Sisler----------------25. Hank Greenberg
    26. Mark McGwire------------26. Biz Mackay------------------26. Ernie Banks
    27. Jackie Robinson---------27. George Brett---------------27. Yogi Berra
    28. Pete Rose---------------28. Mickey Cochrane------------28. Mel Ott
    29. Eddie Mathews
    -----------29. Roberto Clemente----------29. Al Simmons
    30. Craig Biggio---------------30. Cap Anson------------------30. Jackie Robinson
    31. Carl Yastrzemski--------31. Yogi Berra
    -----------------31. Charley Gehringer
    32. Arky Vaughan------------32. Jimmie Foxx----------------32. Buck Leonard
    33. Nap Lajoie--------------33. Joe Morgan-----------------33. Reggie Jackson
    34. Yogi Berra--------------34. Hank Greenberg
    -------------34. Tony Gwynn
    35. Mule Suttles--------------35. Joe Jackson----------------35. Roy Campanella
    36. Johnny Bench------------36. Mike 'King' Kelly------------36. Rickey Henderson
    37. Jeff Bagwell------------37. Hughie Jennings--------------37. Harry Heilmann
    38. Cal Ripken--------------38. Ken Griffey, Jr.-------------38. George Brett
    39. ------------------------39. Cool Papa Bell---------------39. Willie McCovey
    40. Duke Snider-------------40. Frank Robinson-------------40. Bill Dickey
    41. Roy Campanella----------41. Eddie Mathews--------------41. Lou Brock
    42. Tony Gwynn--------------42. Santop Loftin--------------42. Bill Terry
    43. Robin Yount-------------43. Sam Crawford---------------43. Joe Morgan
    44. Reggie Jackson
    ----------44. Ivan Rodriquez-------------44. Rod Carew
    45. Ryne Sandberg-----------45. Arky Vaughan---------------45. Paul Waner
    46. Charlie Gerhinger-------46. Reggie Jackson-------------46. Eddie Mathews
    47. Wade Boggs--------------47. Carl Yastrzemski-----------47. Mickey Cochrane
    48. Eddie Murray------------48. Charlie Gehringer----------48. Cool Papa Bell
    49. Johnny Mize-------------49. Al Simmons-----------------49. Oscar Charleston
    50. Harmon Killebrew--------50. Roy Campanella-------------50. Harmon Killebrew
    51. Rod Carew---------------51. Herman Long----------------51. Pie Traynor
    52. Buck Leonard------------52. Al Kaline------------------52. Carl Yastrzemski
    53. Joe Jackson-------------53. Ed Delahanty---------------53. Willie Keeler
    54. Cristobal Torriente-----54. Bill Dickey----------------54. Al Kaline
    55. Hank Greenberg
    ----------55. Robin Yount----------------55. Eddie Murray
    56. Willie McCovey----------56. Gabby Hartnett-------------56. Cal Ripken
    57. Home Run Baker----------57. Dan Brouthers--------------57. Joe 'Ducky' Medwick
    58. Al Simmons--------------58. Martin Dihigo--------------58. Brooks Robinson
    59. Mickey Cochrane---------59. Christobal Torrienti-------59. Willie Stargell
    60. Ken Griffey, Jr.--------60. John Beckwith--------------60. Duke Snider
    61. Roberto Clemente--------61. Pie Traynor----------------61. Sam Crawford
    62. Frank Thomas------------62. Duke Snider----------------62. Kirby Puckett
    63. Cool Papa Bell----------63. Edd Roush------------------63. Ozzie Smith
    64. Ernie Banks-------------64. Billy Williams-------------64. Frankie Frisch
    65. Mike Piazza-------------65. Richie Ashburn-------------65. Goose Goslin
    66. Roberto Alomar----------66. Bruce Petway---------------66. Ralph Kiner
    67. Tim Raines--------------67. Zach Wheat-----------------67. Mark McGwire
    68. Willie Stargell---------68. Ryne Sandberg--------------68. Chuck Klein
    69. Paul Waner--------------69. Bill Terry-----------------69. Ken Griffey, Jr.
    70. Minnie Minoso-----------70. Cal Ripken-----------------70. Dave Winfield
    71. Willie Wells------------71. Mel Ott--------------------71. Wade Boggs
    72. Ron Santo---------------72. Paul Waner-----------------72. Paul Molitor
    73. Frankie Frisch----------73. Johnny Mize
    74. Sam Crawford------------74. Craig Biggio
    75. Al Kaline---------------75. Ernie Banks
    76. Brooks Robinson---------76. Jeff Bagwell
    77. Barry Larkin------------77. Mike Piazza
    78. Martin Dihigo-----------78. Brooks Robinson
    79. Robin Roberts-----------79. Ron Santo
    80. Carlton Fisk------------80. Harry Heilmann
    81. Kirby Puckett-----------81. Bobby Grich
    82. Ed Delahanty------------82. Sammie Sosa
    83. Billy Williams----------83. Willie McCovey
    ----------------------------84. Mark McGwire
    ----------------------------85. Harmon Killebrew
    ----------------------------86. Ken Boyer
    ----------------------------87. Joe Cronin
    ----------------------------88. Ralph Kiner
    ----------------------------89. Frank Thomas
    ----------------------------90. George Davis
    ----------------------------91. Tony Gwynn
    ----------------------------92. Wade Boggs
    ----------------------------93. Pete Rose
    ----------------------------94. Luke Appling
    ----------------------------95. Rod Carew
    ----------------------------96. Willie Keeler
    ----------------------------97. Spot Poles
    ----------------------------98. Bobby Wallace
    ----------------------------99. Ned Williamson
    ----------------------------100. Bill Lange

    ----------------------------101. Dick Allen

    Their next 10, in their Top 100, that we haven't elected yet.

    Bill James----------------Bill Burgess-----------Sporting News

    26. Mark McGwire-------26. Biz Mackey----------26. Ernie Banks
    30. Craig Biggio---------30. Cap Anson----------29. Al Simmons
    35. Mule Suttles--------36. Mike 'King' Kelly------32. Buck Leonard
    41. Roy Campanella-----37. Hughie Jennings-----34. Tony Gwynn
    42. Tony Gwynn--------39. Cool Papa Bell-------35. Roy Campanella
    45. Ryne Sandberg------42. Santop Loftin--------7. Harry Heilmann
    48. Eddie Murray--------44. Ivan Rodriquez------39. Bill Dickey
    49. Johnny Mize---------49. Al Simmons---------40. Lou Brock
    50. Harmon Killebrew-----50. Roy Campanella-----41. Bill Terry
    51. Rod Carew-----------51. Herman Long-------44. Rod Carew
    Last edited by Bill Burgess; 03-07-2012, 08:44 AM.

    Leave a comment:

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