Question about Babe Ruth

[mailman7777777]

The Babe was one of the best pitchers in the American League. So why when he was traded to the Yankees didn't he pitch? He could have played the outfield on days he wasn't scheduled to pitch.
Did the Yankees have too many pitchers that were better than Ruth? I doubt it.
He did go 5-0 in the only 5 games he did pitch.

Owen

[Tyrus4189Cobb]

Im sure someone else has a much more intelligible answer, but Ruth was already transitioning to outfielder in 1919, the year before his release from Boston. The prior year, he had done some pitching but was seeing more playing time in the field. After hitting a league-leading 11 home runs in just 317 at-bats, the Sox put him to even more field duty because they felt his batting helped them much more than his pitching (sluggers were harder to come by in the dead-ball era). When he led the league in homers again in 1919 with 29, also breaking the single-season mark, the Yankees looked to use his bat as opposed to his pitching.

I suppose they also felt that their pitching staff was healthy enough without Ruth. They had Bob Shawkey, Carl Mays, and Jack Quinn. By 1921, they would pick up Waite Hoyt, and by then Ruth had already established his dominance by again breaking the single-season homer record with 54.

[BigRon]

Ty's right. The Red Sox had already decided that Ruth had more value to them as an every day player. As to the question of playing the field 3 games, then pitching 1- I think this is a lot harder to do than it sounds to some. The conditioning is different. Guys playing in the field on a regular basis may not be able to do the kind of leg and arm conditioning that is optimal for pitching. And, if you're playing the outfield and have to make several long, hard throws, that also may impact your ability to pitch effectively when your turn comes.

[Joltin' Joe]

Ty's right. The Red Sox had already decided that Ruth had more value to them as an every day player. As to the question of playing the field 3 games, then pitching 1- I think this is a lot harder to do than it sounds to some. The conditioning is different. Guys playing in the field on a regular basis may not be able to do the kind of leg and arm conditioning that is optimal for pitching. And, if you're playing the outfield and have to make several long, hard throws, that also may impact your ability to pitch effectively when your turn comes.

Imagine if he was able to do that, the insane WAR he would have put up!

[mailman7777777]

Now c'mon, since when were players back then into "Conditioning"? Ruth would eat 2000 hot dogs a night.
They smoked, drank, and whatever else they wanted. They even played hurt, unlike todays "Conditioned" players.

Ty's right. The Red Sox had already decided that Ruth had more value to them as an every day player. As to the question of playing the field 3 games, then pitching 1- I think this is a lot harder to do than it sounds to some. The conditioning is different. Guys playing in the field on a regular basis may not be able to do the kind of leg and arm conditioning that is optimal for pitching. And, if you're playing the outfield and have to make several long, hard throws, that also may impact your ability to pitch effectively when your turn comes.

[stuarthouse]

Remember, conditioning was not just physical, but mental. Pitching in a rotation and then playing the field has never been done successfully. The baseball professionals over the years have been too intelligent to even try it.

Now c'mon, since when were players back then into "Conditioning"? Ruth would eat 2000 hot dogs a night.
They smoked, drank, and whatever else they wanted. They even played hurt, unlike todays "Conditioned" players.

[drstrangelove]

The Babe was one of the best pitchers in the American League. So why when he was traded to the Yankees didn't he pitch? He could have played the outfield on days he wasn't scheduled to pitch.
Did the Yankees have too many pitchers that were better than Ruth? I doubt it.
He did go 5-0 in the only 5 games he did pitch.

Owen

I did some math on this exact topic, but don't have access to it right this second.

Basically, I looked at 1918, since that wa the only year that Ruth both pitched and played the field to any significant degree.

The summary of what I found was this:

1) Ruth in 1917, as almost exclusively a pitcher, had good batting numbers and was a very good pitcher.

2) Ruth as an every day player with much reduced (minimal) time as pitcher put up monstrous hitting numbers in the first part of 1918. IIRC, at one point he was leading the league in doubles, triples, homers, slugging average, with a fat batting average.

3) Ruth swapped back to a full time pitcher in 1918 (around later July - early August), pitched a ton of innings, and saw his batting numbers dropped catastrophically.

I think 1919, was similar if less dramatic results, but it was a very different season since he didn't have such a stark break in positional usage. He pitcher less in 1919 and it was spread out.

Bottom line, starting pitching, probably a lot more than catching (especially in an era where you pitched complete games all the time) takes more out of you physically than any other position in the game.

By the same token....it's clear that Ruth's batting in 1915-17 sufferred from not being able to swing every day. His numbers likely were all depressed in that period.

[StanTheMan]

Now c'mon, since when were players back then into "Conditioning"? Ruth would eat 2000 hot dogs a night.
They smoked, drank, and whatever else they wanted. They even played hurt, unlike todays "Conditioned" players.

Think beyond merely "conditioning"... would Ruth have been as good a pitcher if he would have taken batting practice and fielding practice EVERY day? Or would his pitching suffer? I believe it would have. My proof is that current pitchers, knnowing they will bat 2-3 times per game, don't take a lot of cuts EVERY DAY. Save the exertion of all their energy for game day and their trip to the hill. It is what a professional should do for their teammates, at the very least. Be as READY as possible, because you are the most important player on your team that day. Pitchers shag flies and throw a side session between starts and thats about it.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Ty's right. The Red Sox had already decided that Ruth had more value to them as an every day player. As to the question of playing the field 3 games, then pitching 1- I think this is a lot harder to do than it sounds to some. The conditioning is different. Guys playing in the field on a regular basis may not be able to do the kind of leg and arm conditioning that is optimal for pitching. And, if you're playing the outfield and have to make several long, hard throws, that also may impact your ability to pitch effectively when your turn comes.

Agree Ron, I would say it's impossible for any player to pitch and on days he should be resting, play another position, how long would he last. Standing around, running the bases, when he should be resting between starts can't be done.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I did some math on this exact topic, but don't have access to it right this second.

Basically, I looked at 1918, since that was the only year that Ruth both pitched and played the field to any significant degree.
The summary of what I found was this:

1) Ruth in 1917, as almost exclusively a pitcher, had good batting numbers and was a very good pitcher.

2) Ruth as an every day player with much reduced (minimal) time as pitcher put up monstrous hitting numbers in the first part of 1918. IIRC, at one point he was leading the league in doubles, triples, homers, slugging average, with a fat batting average.

3) Ruth swapped back to a full time pitcher in 1918 (around later July - early August), pitched a ton of innings, and saw his batting numbers dropped catastrophically.

I think 1919, was similar if less dramatic results, but it was a very different season since he didn't have such a stark break in positional usage. He pitcher less in 1919 and it was spread out.

Bottom line, starting pitching, probably a lot more than catching (especially in an era where you pitched complete games all the time) takes more out of you physically than any other position in the game.

By the same token....it's clear that Ruth's batting in 1915-17 sufferred from not being able to swing every day. His numbers likely were all depressed in that period.

I think Babe carried a heavier work load in 1919 than he did in 1918. Not much more than 1918, but to some degree.
He did a bit less pitching in 1919 but more than made up for that with many more games in the outfield.

Pitching 1918 - start 20 games -18 complete games -166 innings
Pitching 1919 - start 15 games -12 complete games -133 innings

Position playing 1918-First base-13 games - outfield - 59 games
position playing 1919-First base- 4 games - outfield - 111 games

1919 he pitched 6 less complete games but that 111 in the outfield compared to 59 games in 1918, that had to put a drain on him.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Surprised no one brought up the old .................what if.
I won't go too far with this one, not too crazy about the what if's.
But I'm betting sooner or later it would appear on this thread..............what if the DH was in the game back then, that might make it possible for a pitcher to be in some games on his days off from pitching.
Possible if the DH was in the game, his hitting and power may not been as evident to consider him as a DH not right away anyway.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I don't think there is any doubt, Babe was going to leave the mound at about the time he did 1920. Wouldn't matter if he stayed with the Bosox, he was heading for the outfield.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Think beyond merely "conditioning"... would Ruth have been as good a pitcher if he would have taken batting practice and fielding practice EVERY day? Or would his pitching suffer? I believe it would have. My proof is that current pitchers, knnowing they will bat 2-3 times per game, don't take a lot of cuts EVERY DAY. Save the exertion of all their energy for game day and their trip to the hill. It is what a professional should do for their teammates, at the very least. Be as READY as possible, because you are the most important player on your team that day. Pitchers shag flies and throw a side session between starts and thats about it.

Agree Stan, suffer is putting it mildly. I can't believe that anyone could think a pitcher could play a significant number of games in a season as a position player between starts.

[drstrangelove]

I think Babe carried a heavier work load in 1919 than he did in 1918. Not much more than 1918, but to some degree.
He did a bit less pitching in 1919 but more than made up for that with many more games in the outfield.

Pitching 1918 - start 20 games -18 complete games -166 innings
Pitching 1919 - start 15 games -12 complete games -133 innings

Position playing 1918-First base-13 games - outfield - 59 games
position playing 1919-First base- 4 games - outfield - 111 games

1919 he pitched 6 less complete games but that 111 in the outfield compared to 59 games in 1918, that had to put a drain on him.

My fault for not being clear...I was referring to the portions of the seasons in part, not the whole seasons. Let me show that below with narratives to follow:



1917 whole season when he pitched over 300 innings, PA 142 OPS+ 162
1918 April-July when he pitched 94 innings: PA 277, OPS+207 (innings pitched are well below normal)
1918 July 31 to end of season when he pitched 73 innings: PA 103, OPS+158 (innings pitched are back to normal levels)
1919 April through July (excluding June 30-July 16), when he pitched 110 innings, PA 255, OPS+202 (innings pitched are again below normal)
1919 June 30 - July 16 (when he had not pitched since June 25 and did not pitch at all), PA 80. OPS+ 240 (no innings pitched)
1919 August-Sept when he pitched 23 innings, OPS+ 233 (well below normal innings pitched)

These come from Retrosheet. Basically, you can see that Ruth's hitting took a 40-60 point drop in OPS+ when he began to pitch heavily.

1917 162 OPS+ is obviously below his native ability due to pitching
1918 First part....less pitching and his OPS+ rockets to 207
1918 Second part....heavy pitching and his OPS+ drops to 1917 levels (158)
1919 first part (April-June, plus second half of July) Ruth is NOW a better hitter with more major league experience, regular batting practice and his OPS+ with a LIGHT pitching schedule is 202
1919 second part Ruth takes a break (June 30 to July 16, before he goes back to the regular rotation through July) and his OPS jumps to 240
1919 third part Ruth after July 31, starts only 3 games and his OPS is at 233
1920 History

The OPS+ calcs were interpolated a tad, so if someone re-does them, their answers will differ slightly. (I still can't find my original math on this...)

In short, IMO, Ruth's OPS+ changes from 1917 to 1919 can be directly tied to his use as a pitcher. It's clear as well, that his growth as a batter was retarded from 1915 - 1919 from his inability to reglarly face major league hitting, plus anecdotally to his lack of good batting practice

Ruth could have been 1 of 4 things assuming a DH in 1915-34:

1) a very good pitcher with a very good hitting mark (say ERA+ of 130, OPS+ of 160) pitching every 5th day, DH the rest
2) a great hitter (who pitched every 6th-7th day, DH some, right field some) with an OPS+ of 185-190, ERA+ of 110
3) a more prolific hitter who begain in 1915, did not pitch and who gained from the extra rest afforded from 10-15 games as a DH (OPS+ 215)
4) what he was (which is really enough for me)

Ninja edited some points, but nothing much

[SHOELESSJOE3]

My fault for not being clear...I was referring to the portions of the seasons in part, not the whole seasons. Let me show that below with narratives to follow:



1917 whole season when he pitched over 300 innings, PA 142 OPS+ 162
1918 April-July when he pitched 94 innings: PA 277, OPS+207 (innings pitched are well below normal)
1918 July 31 to end of season when he pitched 73 innings: PA 103, OPS+158 (innings pitched are back to normal levels)
1919 April through July (excluding June 30-July 16), when he pitched 110 innings, PA 255, OPS+202 (innings pitched are again below normal)
1919 June 30 - July 16 (when he had not pitched since June 25 and did not pitch at all), PA 80. OPS+ 240 (no innings pitched)
1919 August-Sept when he pitched 23 innings, OPS+ 233 (well below normal innings pitched)

These come from Retrosheet. Basically, you can see that Ruth's hitting took a 40-60 point drop in OPS+ when he began to pitch heavily.

1917 162 OPS+ is obviously below his native ability due to pitching
1918 First part....less pitching and his OPS+ rockets to 207
1918 Second part....heavy pitching ansd his OPS+ drops to 1917 levels
1919 first part Ruth is NOW a better with more major league experience and his OPS+ with a LIGHT pitching schedlue is 202
1919 second part Ruth takes a brake (June 30 to July 16) and his OPS jumps to 240
1919 third part Ruth after July 31, starts only 3 games and his OPS is at 233
1920 History

Thats clear now, got your point.