Greatest Player by Position: Round 9

[Tyrus4189Cobb]

I thank everyone for their continued participation in my annual project. We have now finished right field, yielding the official 2012 results.

Catchers
1) Johnny Bench- 139 pts
2) Yogi Berra- 124 pts
3) Mike Piazza- 95 pts
4) Mickey Cochrane- 90 pts
5) Roy Campanella- 71 pts
6) Ivan Rodriguez- 68 pts
7) Gary Carter- 66 pts
8) Carlton Fisk- 56 pts
---Bill Dickey- 56 pts
10) Gabby Hartnett- 45 pts

First base
1) Lou Gehrig- 150 pts
2) Jimmie Foxx- 132 pts
3) Albert Pujols- 116 pts
4) Jeff Bagwell- 88 pts
5) Johnny Mize- 69 pts
6) Hank Greenberg- 61 pts
7) Frank Thomas- 50 pts
8) Willie McCovey- 30 pts
9) Cap Anson- 29 pts
Dan Brouthers- 29 pts

Second base-
1) Rogers Hornsby- 139 pts
2) Eddie Collins- 120 pts
3) Joe Morgan- 110 pts
4) Nap Lajoie- 102 pts
5) Charlie Gehringer- 75 pts
6) Jackie Robinson- 73 pts
7) Rod Carew- 39 pts
8) Frankie Frisch- 34 pts
9) Roberto Alomar- 18 pts
10) Craig Biggio- 15 pts
-----Ryne Sandberg- 15 pts

Third base-
1) Mike Schmidt- 150 pts
2) Eddie Mathews- 132 pts
3) George Brett- 120 pts
4) Wade Boggs- 104 pts
5) Chipper Jones- 93 pts
6) Ron Santo- 69 pts
7) Brooks Robinson- 36 pts
8) Frank Baker- 34 pts
9) Paul Molitor- 28 pts
10) Scott Rolen- 18 pts

Shortstop-
1) Honus Wagner- 160 pts
2) Alex Rodriguez- 144 pts
3) Arky Vaughan- 117 pts
4) Cal Ripken- 113 pts
5) Robin Yount- 83 pts
6) Ernie Banks- 73 pts
7) George Davis- 44 pts
8) Derek Jeter- 42 pts
9) Joe Cronin- 32 pts
10) Barry Larkin- 31 pts

Left field
1) Ted Williams- 183 pts
2) Barry Bonds- 173 pts
3) Stan Musial- 153 pts
4) Rickey Henderson- 133 pts
5) Carl Yastrzemski- 108 pts
6) Ed Delahanty- 57 pts
7) Joe Jackson- 54 pts
8) Al Simmons- 47 pts
9) Pete Rose- 38 pts
10) Manny Ramirez- 31 pts

Center field
1) Willie Mays- 144 pts
2) Ty Cobb- 139 pts
3) Mickey Mantle- 115 pts
4) Tris Speaker- 107 pts
5) Joe DiMagio- 90 pts
6) Ken Griffey Jr.- 80 pts
7) Duke Snider- 53 pts
8) Billy Hamilton- 38 pts
9) Jim Edmonds- 36 pts
10) Richie Ashburn- 7 pts
----Kirby Puckett- 7 pts
Right Field
1. Babe Ruth- 180 pts
2. Hank Aaron- 162 pts
3. Frank Robinson- 141 pts
4. Mel Ott- 124 pts
5. Al Kaline- 81 pts
6. Roberto Clemente- 73 pts
7. Reggie Jackson- 66 pts
8. Sam Crawford- 37 pts
9. Tony Gwynn- 32 pts
10. Vladimir Guerrero- 23 pts
------------------------------------
But wait. There's more! In 2010, I added starting pitchers to the mix. The formula is the same as before, only this time I ask that you give your top fifteen because this position has the most players. Again, the same Negro League restrictions apply.

	2010			2011
1	W. Johnson (206)	W. Johnson (204)
2	Young (165)		Young (165)	
3	Maddux (162)		Maddux (159)	
4	Alexander (159)		Alexander (156)
5	Grove (147)		Grove (153)	
6	Seaver (121)		Clemens (124)	
7	Clemens (115)		Seaver (123)	
8	Mathewson (105)		Mathewson (118)
9	R. Johnson (94)		R. Johnson (90)
10	Spahn (82)		Spahn (83)	
11	Page (81)**		Nichols (40)	
12	P. Martinez (41)	Paige (38)**	
13	Nichols (35)		Carlton (32)	
14	Gibson (30)		Feller (31)	
15	Feller (26)		Gibson (30)

[PVNICK]

1. Walter Johnson - 15
2. Lefty Grove - 14
3. Greg Maddux - 13
4. Cy Young - 12
5. Pete Alexander - 11
6. Tom Seaver - 10
7. Christy Mathewson - 9
8. Roger Clemens - 8
9. Randy Johnson - 7
10. Warren Spahn - 6
11. Bob Feller - 5
12. Steve Carlton - 4
13. Kid Nichols - 3
14. Pedro Martinez - 2
15. Juan Marichal - 1

tough call on 15 to replace Satchel Paige from my last list, Gibson, Hubbell and Koufax were also under consideration.

[AstrosFan]

1. Walter Johnson
2. Greg Maddux
3. Roger Clemens
4. Cy Young
5. Tom Seaver
6. Lefty Grove
7. Randy Johnson
8. Pete Alexander
9. Bob Gibson
10. Christy Mathewson
11. Warren Spahn
12. Kid Nichols
13. Pedro Martinez
14. Bob Feller
15. Steve Carlton

[Nerdlinger]

1) Cy Young - 15 pts
2) Walter Johnson - 14 pts
3) Roger Clemens - 13 pts
4) Pete Alexander - 12 pts
5) Tom Seaver - 11 pts
6) Kid Nichols - 10 pts
7) Greg Maddux - 9 pts
8) Lefty Grove - 8 pts
9) Phil Niekro - 7 pts
10) Bob Gibson - 6 pts
11) Christy Mathewson - 5 pts
12) Gaylord Perry - 4 pts
13) Warren Spahn - 3 pts
14) Randy Johnson - 2 pts
15) Bert Blyleven - 1 pt
Unwarranted snarky comment from Ron in 3, 2, 1....

[BigRon]

1) Cy Young - 15 pts
2) Walter Johnson - 14 pts
3) Roger Clemens - 13 pts
4) Pete Alexander - 12 pts
5) Tom Seaver - 11 pts
6) Kid Nichols - 10 pts
7) Greg Maddux - 9 pts
8) Lefty Grove - 8 pts
9) Phil Niekro - 7 pts
10) Bob Gibson - 6 pts
11) Christy Mathewson - 5 pts
12) Gaylord Perry - 4 pts
13) Warren Spahn - 3 pts
14) Randy Johnson - 2 pts
15) Bert Blyleven - 1 pt
Unwarranted snarky comment from Ron in 3, 2, 1....

DJC- that's cool, how did you do that? First, you're going to think I'm harrassing you. I promise I'm not, and I'm not going to make a bunch of "unwarranted snarky comments". Actually, I don't think I ever have done so to you, but....

But, my serious question is: do you really believe Bert Blyleven is the 15th greatest pitcher in ML history? And why?

There- I promise not to get into a back and forth with you. Just interested in your rationale on Blyleven.

[Nerdlinger]

DJC- that's cool, how did you do that? First, you're going to think I'm harrassing you. I promise I'm not, and I'm not going to make a bunch of "unwarranted snarky comments". Actually, I don't think I ever have done so to you, but....

But, my serious question is: do you really believe Bert Blyleven is the 15th greatest pitcher in ML history? And why?

There- I promise not to get into a back and forth with you. Just interested in your rationale on Blyleven.

Going by WAR, Blyleven has the 15th highest career value among MLB pitchers. The numbers are the best gauge I can think of to quantify the inherently unquantifiable quality of "greatness." That's all. I'm not here to put forth any authoritative statements as to who is the nth greatest pitcher ever.

[Bothrops Atrox]

1. Walter Johnson
2. Roger Clemens
3. Cy Young
4. Greg Maddux
5. Pete Alexander
6. Tom Seaver
7. Lefty Grove
8. Randy Johnson
9. Christy Mathewson
10. Warren Spahn
11. Bob Gibson
12. Kid Nichols
13. Steve Carlton
14. Pedro Martinez
15. Bob Feller

[Bigfoot 88]

1-Walter Johnson: 15 Points
2-Roger Clemens: 14 Points
3-Greg Maddux: 13 Points
4-Lefty Grove: 12 Points
5-Cy Young: 11 Points
6-Tom Seaver: 10 Points
7-Randy Johnson: 9 Points
8-Pete Alexander: 8 Points
9-Christy Mathewson: 7 Points
10-Warren Spahn: 6 Points
11-Pedro Martinez: 5 Points
12-Bob Feller: 4 Points
13-Bob Gibson: 3 Points
14-Sandy Koufax: 2 Points
15-Steve Carlton: 1 Points

[BigRon]

There are some hard choices- not so much in WHO are the top 15, but in what order.

1. Walter Johnson- too good for too long
2. Roger Clemens- no insinuations from me concerning use/non-use of PEDs
3. Grover Cleveland Alexander- remember, he lost a year at his great peak due to WW1
4. Lefty Grove- give him a little philosophical credit for a couple of years before he entered MLB- behind Alex only due to some durability issues
5. Greg Maddux
6. Cy Young- unequalled span of high level pitching
7. Tom Seaver
8. Christy Mathewson
9. Randy Johnson, just a hair ahead of
10. Warren Spahn- I think many younger BBFers have no understanding of how consistently good he was
11. Bob Feller- with some war credit- and no, I don't subscribe to the theory that the war years actually saved his arm
12. Bob Gibson
13. Pedro Martinez- relatively few IPs (per year as well as career) keep him from ranking higher
14. Kid Nichols- I've come to accept his greatness
15. Steve Carlton- the greatest pitcher to never throw the ball over the plate

Close behind: Hubbell, PNiekro, Roberts, Marichal, GPerry, Koufax, etc.

I could make arguments for any of my 2 through at least 6 pitchers to be re-ordered in any fashion. And, I might even include the top spot- I'm not 100% convinced that WJohnson is the top guy.

[chicagowhitesox1173]

1. Walter johnson 15
2. Lefty Grove 14
3. Greg Maddux 13
4. Roger Clemens 12
5. Christy Mathewson 11
6. Pete Alexander 10
7. Randy Johnson 9
8. Pedro Martinez 8
9. Tom Seaver 7
10. Cy Young 6
11. Warren Spahn 5
12. Kid Nichols 4
13. Bob Gibson 3
14. Steve Carlton 2.....
15. Gaylord Perry 1....He won 15 games or more for 13 or 14 straight seasons and had a 96 war. I think he gets under rated sometimes.

Bob Feller and Carl Hubbell would be next.

[leewileyfan]

EDITED: 3-7-2012 ... Final and corrected:

Walter Johnson [15]
Pete Alexander [14]
Cy Young [13]
Roger Clemens [12]
Greg Maddux [11]
Warren Spahn [10]
Lefty Grove [9]
Randy Johnson [8]
Carl Hubbell [7]
Tom Seaver [6]
Bob Feller [5]
Pedro Martinez [4]
Juan Marichal [3]
Christy Mathewson [2]
Addie Joss [1]

[pheasant]

Pete Alexander
Roger Clemens
Walter Johnson
Lefty Grove
Greg Maddux
Randy Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Cy Young
Tom Seaver
Pedro Martinez
Warren Spahn
Steve Carlton
Bob Gibson
Bob Feller

This to me was the toughest list to generate of them all by a longshot. I actually believe that the Big Train, Roger, Clemens, Cy Young, and Lefty Grove have the best resumes. However, I think the Big Train might suffer in today's game with his limited repertoire. Cy Young gets hit big for league quality. I personally like Pete Alexander the most due to his nifty control and his great adjustment to the Live Ball era despite being a broken down epiletic drunk. He had quite the repertoire of pitches. Overall, I think we are splitting atoms here among the top 8 spots or so.

[NJRob65]

1. Walter Johnson- 15 pts.

2- Roger Clemens- 14 pts.

3- Cy Young- 13 pts.

4- Grover Cleveland Alexander- 12 pts.

5- Christy Mathewson- 11 pts

6- Greg Maddux-10 pts.

7- Lefty Grove- 9 pts,

8- Randy Johnson- 8 pts.

9- Tom Seaver- 7 pts.

10- Kid Nichols- 6 pts.

11- Waren Spahn- 5 pts.

12- Pedro Martinez-4 pts

13- Carl Hubbell-3 pts.

14- Phil Niekro-2 pts.

15- Gaylord Perry- 1 pt.

[Blackout]

1 Walter Johnson
2 Pedro Martinez
3 Randy Johnson
4 Three Finger Brown
5 Christy Matthewson
6 Pete Alexander
7 Roger Clemens
8 Cy Young
9 Whitey Ford
10 Bob Gibson
11 Tom Seaver
12 Warren Spahn
13 Lefty Grove
14 CC Sabathia
15 Roy Halladay

[bluesky5]

3. Grover Cleveland Alexander- remember, he lost a year at his great peak due to WW1

The war messed him up for life. Something with the artillery. Hurt is brain, made him drink more. Ruined him.