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Players Overshadowed by Steroid Users

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  • Players Overshadowed by Steroid Users

    One thing not often talked about anywhere is the players who would have been among the league leaders if the steroid users weren't allowed to thrive. I'm starting in '98 and ending in '03 since it seems like it was a peak time for use. I left out some suspicious to highly suspicious names simply to be fair since they were never caught red-handed or with their pants down.

    1998
    HR - McGwire, Sosa, Vaughn, Griffey, Belle, Castilla, Canseco, Ramirez, Gonzalez, Galarraga
    RBI - Sosa, Gonzalez, Belle, McGwire, Griffey, Ramirez, Castilla, Kent, Burnitz, Alou
    OBP - McGwire, Olerud, Walker, Bonds, Martinez, Sheffield, Bagwell, B. Williams, Thome, Kendall
    SLG - McGwire, Belle, Sosa, Gonzalez, Walker, Griffey, Bonds, Ramirez, Vaughn, Galarraga
    R - Sosa, McGwire, Jeter, Durham, Bagwell, Jones, Rodriguez, Biggio, Bonds, Griffey

    1999
    HR - McGwire, Sosa, Griffey, Palmeiro, Vaughn, Jones, Ramirez, Delgado, Guerrero, Green, Bagwell
    RBI - Ramirez, Palmeiro, McGwire, Williams, Sosa, Delgado, Griffey, Bichette, Guerrero, Gonzalez
    OBP - Walker, Bagwell, Martinez, Abreu, Ramirez, Jones, Jeter, B. Williams, Olerud, Fernandez
    SLG - Walker, McGwire, Ramirez, Sosa, Jones, Palmeiro, Giles, Garciaparra, Gonzalez, Guerrero
    R - Bagwell, Alomar, Jeter, Green, J. Bell, Ramirez, Alfonzo, Biggio, Griffey, Knoblauch

    2000
    HR - Sosa, Bonds, Glaus, Bagwell, Hidalgo, Guerrero, Giambi, Thomas, Sheffield, Helton, Edmonds
    RBI - Helton, Martinez, Sweeney, Thomas, Sosa, Giambi, Delgado, Rodriguez, Bagwell, Ordonez
    OBP - Giambi, Delgado, Helton, Ramirez, Bonds, Sheffield, Thomas, Garciaparra, Giles, Alfonzo
    SLG - Helton, Ramirez, Bonds, Delgado, Guerrero, Giambi, Sheffield, Hidalgo, Sosa, Thomas
    R - Bagwell, Helton, Damon, Rodriguez, Bonds, Edmonds, Jones, Erstad, Durham, Glaus

    2001
    HR -Bonds, Sosa, Gonzalez, Rodriguez, Helton, Thome, Green, Palmeiro, Sexson, Glaus, Ramirez
    RBI - Sosa, Helton, Gonzalez, Boone, Gonzalez, Bonds, Rodriguez, Bagwell, Pujols, Berkman
    OBP - Bonds, Giambi, Walker, Sosa, Helton, Berkman, Gonzalez, Jones, Martinez, Sheffield
    SLG - Bonds, Sosa, Gonzalez, Helton, Walker, Giambi, Thome, Rodriguez, Berkman, Pujols
    R - Sosa, Rodriguez, Helton, Bonds, Gonzalez, Suzuki, Bagwell, Floyd, Green, Boone, Abreu, Biggio

    2002
    HR - Rodriguez, Thome, Sosa, Bonds, Palmeiro, Berkman, Green, Giambi, Guerrero, Soriano
    RBI - Rodriguez, Ordonez, Tejada, Berkman, Pujols, Anderson, Giambi, Garciaparra, Thome, Burrell
    OBP - Bonds, Giles, Ramirez, Thome, Giambi, Jones, Helton, Walker, Edmonds, Guerrero
    SLG - Bonds, Thome, Ramirez, Rodriguez, Giles, Walker, Giambi, Ordonez, Sosa, Guerrero
    R - Soriano, Rodriguez, Jeter, Sosa, Giambi, Pujols, Damon, Bonds, Ordonez, Helton, Durham

    2003
    HR - Rodriguez, Thome, Bonds, Sexson, Lopez, Pujols, Delgado, Thomas, Giambi, Sosa
    RBI - Delgado, Wilson, Sheffield, Thome, Sexson, Pujols, Rodriguez, Helton, Wells, Boone
    OBP - Bonds, Helton, Pujols, Ramirez, Giles, Delgado, Walker, Sheffield, Berkman, Giambi
    SLG - Bonds, Lopez, Pujols, Helton, Edmonds, Sheffield, Rodriguez, Delgado, Ortiz, Ramirez
    R - Pujols, Helton, Furcal, Sheffield, Rodriguez, Garciaparra, Wells, Ramirez, Delgado, Soriano
    "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

  • #2
    You could also look at the MVP voting per season.

    Like in 2003, Delgado lost to Alex Rodriguez, 1996 Piazza lost to Ken Caminiti, etc.

    Jim Thome probably got overshadowed by steroid users. By the time he got to 600 homeruns lots of people were surprised because they hardly paid attention to him. They were watching Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, and others.

    Another one is Fred McGriff (Although I'm not sure if there are steroid clouds surrounding him)

    Comment


    • #3
      Greg Maddux was generally over shadowed by Roger Clemens.

      Not anymore though.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by redban View Post
        You could also look at the MVP voting per season.

        Like in 2003, Delgado lost to Alex Rodriguez, 1996 Piazza lost to Ken Caminiti, etc.

        Jim Thome probably got overshadowed by steroid users. By the time he got to 600 homeruns lots of people were surprised because they hardly paid attention to him. They were watching Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, and others.

        Another one is Fred McGriff (Although I'm not sure if there are steroid clouds surrounding him)
        True, redban. The MVP's, SS's, GG's, ASG's, $'s, WS's and recognition the clean guys missed out is really non-quantifiable and really a shame. They are pushed out of the top tens at nearly a 50% clip.
        "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

        Comment


        • #5
          Even the ones NOT highlighted, I deem suspect

          Which is why I appreciate Derek Jeter, Craig Biggio and Ichiro even more now

          Comment


          • #6
            Even the ones NOT highlighted, I deem suspect

            Which is why I appreciate Derek Jeter, Craig Biggio and Ichiro even more now

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
              One thing not often talked about anywhere is the players who would have been among the league leaders if the steroid users weren't allowed to thrive. I'm starting in '98 and ending in '03 since it seems like it was a peak time for use. I left out some suspicious to highly suspicious names simply to be fair since they were never caught red-handed or with their pants down.
              Good point, overlooked by many. Mention Barry Bonds and some come up with the "so what" others were using.
              That means nothing, it's that all the users having an edge over the non users.
              Same with Clemens, Mac and some others, those that benefit from use, playing with an advantage over those not using.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by fenrir View Post
                Greg Maddux was generally over shadowed by Roger Clemens.

                Not anymore though.
                I think Clemens was just the tip of the iceburg - I think a lot of pitchers were using steroids - probably more pitchers than hitters

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by John Shoemaker View Post
                  I think Clemens was just the tip of the iceburg - I think a lot of pitchers were using steroids - probably more pitchers than hitters
                  I agree to a certain extent. I don't know if more pitchers were using, but I certainly think a large amount were.

                  Pitchers get more of a free pass when it comes to steroids because the numbers point to hitters benefiting more. Though I would argue that this would be a hitters era regardless of steroids. One of the biggest benefits of steroids is faster recovery from injuries, workouts, etc. A pitcher who uses steroids would be able to recover much faster in between starts, which makes it easier to rest and recuperate and in turn allows them to pitch much longer at a dominant level. I also think steroids can significantly increase leg strength, which is an important factor in creating velocity, but that's just my opinion, not something I have proof of.

                  Here's a good article discussing why pitchers use steroids, and how they would benefit: http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3246463
                  Last edited by fenrir; 05-01-2012, 02:14 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Looking at those lists I find it harder to find the probable non-users than I do the users, so making a case for a player that was unfairly overshadowed feels futile.

                    I suppose if we're to use the eye test, Jim Thome seems like the least likely power hitter to have been using. I've never seen the man with his shirt off, but he looks like someone from another era, and he's seemingly outlasting all his peers from those days. Having seen Jeter in person a number of times, he physically doesn't strike me as someone who's ever used.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Joe33 View Post
                      Looking at those lists I find it harder to find the probable non-users than I do the users, so making a case for a player that was unfairly overshadowed feels futile.

                      I suppose if we're to use the eye test, Jim Thome seems like the least likely power hitter to have been using. I've never seen the man with his shirt off, but he looks like someone from another era, and he's seemingly outlasting all his peers from those days. Having seen Jeter in person a number of times, he physically doesn't strike me as someone who's ever used.
                      Did Matt Lawton?
                      Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                      Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                      Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                      Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                      Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                        Did Matt Lawton?
                        Are you trying to say: Do we care about only the really successful steroid users while ignoring the middle of the pack users? Very Aesopian of you. Were you told this by an anthropomorphic animal at a veterinary clinic in late '05? Was the animal looking for its boldenone?
                        "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                          Did Matt Lawton?
                          Yeah, actually, he did.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Imapotato View Post
                            Even the ones NOT highlighted, I deem suspect

                            Which is why I appreciate Derek Jeter, Craig Biggio and Ichiro even more now
                            Biggio has had suspicions surrounding him as long as I can remember.

                            I think Jr was ever under the cloud though.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                              Are you trying to say: Do we care about only the really successful steroid users while ignoring the middle of the pack users? Very Aesopian of you. Were you told this by an anthropomorphic animal at a veterinary clinic in late '05? Was the animal looking for its boldenone?
                              It was Joey, the real Captain Cold Nose. And it was 2002. He said "Harrr. Har rar rar har". I was told he was either talking about Lawton and other positive testers who did not look the part, or that a storm was coming.

                              Bottom line is, with masking agents, going after the usual suspects, etc. we really can't say for certain who did or who did not use. Even Derek Jeter, who I am actually a fan of. With only suspicion I cannot condemn a player for using, personally.
                              Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                              Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                              Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                              Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                              Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

                              Comment

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