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Players Overshadowed by Steroid Users

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Joe33 View Post
    I wasn't aware Mihlfeld's name was erroneously tied to that investigation. I could have said Angel Presinal, would have fit better with my point.
    Looks like he was working with nearly all of the Dominican superstars. Not just Pujols, but Vlad, Pedro Martinez, Raul Mondesi, Robinson Cano, Bartolo Colon, etc.
    Last edited by fenrir; 05-05-2012, 01:52 PM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by fenrir View Post
      Don't want to turn this into a Clemens steroids debate, but if you believe he was clean, you would have to believe Mcnamee told the truth about Pettitte and Knoblauch, but completely lied about Clemens, which would make no sense.. You would also have to believe that he injected Debbie Clemens with HGH (which has been confirmed) but not her husband the athlete, Roger Clemens.
      Thats always been my stance on Roger. Why in the world would McNamee under oath toss Clemens in with Petitte and Knobloch who both admitted McNamee was correct in naming them.
      Under oath, why would he make that one up.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
        Thats always been my stance on Roger. Why in the world would McNamee under oath toss Clemens in with Petitte and Knobloch who both admitted McNamee was correct in naming them.
        Under oath, why would he make that one up.
        Without Clemens there is no publicity for the investigator's case.

        One thing that always struck me as very odd is that McNamee apparently kept used steroid equipment relating to Clemens. Why on earth would anyone do that unless they were planning to set the man up? McNamee sounds like anything but a stand-up guy.

        From what I hear the judge in this case appears uninterested in pursuing it. It needs to go away.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Joe33 View Post
          Without Clemens there is no publicity for the investigator's case.
          This doesn't mean anything. If Clemens was clean, Mcnamee would have not had to give up his name.

          Originally posted by Joe33 View Post
          One thing that always struck me as very odd is that McNamee apparently kept used steroid equipment relating to Clemens. Why on earth would anyone do that unless they were planning to set the man up? McNamee sounds like anything but a stand-up guy.

          From what I hear the judge in this case appears uninterested in pursuing it. It needs to go away.
          If Mcnamee wanted to set him up, what would he gain by doing so? Perhaps he kept the stuff because he thought something like this would happen later? Also, how do you manufacture that kind of evidence? Let's say that he injected Clemens with B-12, how would he be able to manufacture the needles with Clemens blood on it, by replacing B-12 with steroids? And if he wanted to blackmail Clemens, why wait until the Mitchell report came out? Why not do it years before?

          One thing I find interesting is despite Mcnamee's shady past, as well as the fact that Clemens claims Mcnamee injected his wife with HGH behind his back, Clemens worked with Mcnamee for 10 years. He worked with him until he retired. If Mcnamee was such untrustworthy scumbag like Clemens and his lawyers claim, why didn't Clemens find someone else to work with during his playing days? In fact, when Mcnamee was named on the Grimsley affidavit, Clemens publicly defended Mcnamee.
          Last edited by fenrir; 05-05-2012, 03:12 PM.

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          • #35
            Does this make any sense.

            In the first hearing, couple of years ago
            Andy Petitte at the first hearing a couple of years ago said Clemens told him in 1999-2000 he had used a steroid around 1995.
            Clemens claimed Andy misremembered in that 1999-2000 conversation.

            They spoke again in 2005 and Clemens told Andy, what are you talking about, my wife Debbie used. Supposedly Debbie was doing a photo session and was injected, nothing wrong there.

            The problem, how could Roger be speaking to Andy in 1999-2000 about about his wife being injected in 1995 when she was not injected until years later, 2003.
            .
            Roger may skate free on this one, seems like since the first hearing, now Andy appears to be out to help his buddy.
            I doubt anything will come out of this one, it's the same line used in criminal trials, all buddy Andy has to say is, maybe I heard wrong or did not really remember.Try to prove that a person is not being truthful when they claim....I don't remember

            I still go by Petitte and Knobloch confirming that McNamee was being truthful saying he injected both of them and ask, why would McNamee risk perjury and just throw in Clemens name with the other two. This one just requires common sense.
            Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 05-05-2012, 03:48 PM.

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            • #36
              I see Roger in the same situation Barry was in. Difficult in both cases to prove the charges, especially in Barry's case.
              Greg Anderson refused to testify and that kept some evidence from being used in the trial.
              By the same situation I mean, the trial results will change no minds. They will both be judged by some to be users. Even some who don't care if Barry used, even some of them don't believe his story.

              Of course a victory in court is very important to them.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                It was Joey, the real Captain Cold Nose. And it was 2002. He said "Harrr. Har rar rar har". I was told he was either talking about Lawton and other positive testers who did not look the part, or that a storm was coming.

                Bottom line is, with masking agents, going after the usual suspects, etc. we really can't say for certain who did or who did not use. Even Derek Jeter, who I am actually a fan of. With only suspicion I cannot condemn a player for using, personally.
                I wasn't trying to be a jerk. I was just Joshin' ya.
                "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Joe33 View Post
                  That's a fair position. It makes me ask why Sammy Sosa is always included in these lists. The "2003 list" has never been confirmed as legitimate.
                  Sammy Sosa is blatantly obvious. He was not an elite ballplayer and should never be treated as such. Three 60+ HR seasons. By Sammy Sosa. :dismay:
                  "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                    Sammy Sosa is blatantly obvious. He was not an elite ballplayer and should never be treated as such. Three 60+ HR seasons. By Sammy Sosa. :dismay:
                    Right, the obvious.The majic number 60 in baseball, only reached two times since the live ball era, Ruth 60 then Maris 61.

                    Along comes Sammy, one player, some how he hits that magic number plus, three time in a four year span, 66-63-50-64 and wonders why fans............that know the game begin to wonder.
                    And he has some company, Mac and later Barry hitting 60+ like it was nothing.

                    What do they all have in common, users of a substance, some not banned in some years.
                    So not banned, but they all deny using anything, Mac later admits.
                    Anyone watching this game for years and knows the game would have to know, something is up here.
                    Took a while, but now we do know what was taking place.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
                      Right, the obvious.The majic number 60 in baseball, only reached two times since the live ball era, Ruth 60 then Maris 61.

                      Along comes Sammy, one player, some how he hits that magic number plus, three time in a four year span, 66-63-50-64 and wonders why fans............that know the game begin to wonder.
                      And he has some company, Mac and later Barry hitting 60+ like it was nothing.

                      What do they all have in common, users of a substance, some not banned in some years.
                      So not banned, but they all deny using anything, Mac later admits.
                      Anyone watching this game for years and knows the game would have to know, something is up here.
                      Took a while, but now we do know what was taking place.
                      Yea, the fact that they denied it shows that they knew inherently that what they were doing was wrong. I don't understand why other people defend them or turn their heads. When they act the guilty party, lying in courts, refusing to speak, etc. None of them stood up and said hey steroids are great and I do not regret it. The only one who does is Canseco and he is not a man of reputable character.
                      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                        Sammy Sosa is blatantly obvious. He was not an elite ballplayer and should never be treated as such. Three 60+ HR seasons. By Sammy Sosa. :dismay:
                        Plenty of players were "blatantly obvious", but Sammy gets attention because he did things they couldn't do. Which makes your claim that he wasn't an elite player even more ridiculous. We'll just ignore the 600 home runs and three seasons of more than 60 HR. Nonsense.
                        Prior to 1998, he reeled off a 5 year stretch of 170 HR, averaging 34 a season (take away the strike and time missed with injuries, and you're looking at 40 HR averaged per 162 games). He was already an elite level power hitter before he went crazy in 1998.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Joe33 View Post
                          Plenty of players were "blatantly obvious", but Sammy gets attention because he did things they couldn't do. Which makes your claim that he wasn't an elite player even more ridiculous. We'll just ignore the 600 home runs and three seasons of more than 60 HR. Nonsense.
                          Prior to 1998, he reeled off a 5 year stretch of 170 HR, averaging 34 a season (take away the strike and time missed with injuries, and you're looking at 40 HR averaged per 162 games). He was already an elite level power hitter before he went crazy in 1998.
                          He was not an elite player. 40 HR at Wrigley clean. I mean good for him. Pre - '97 he was .257/.308/.469. He probably lost his speed because of steroid use. He was a poor mans Jayson Werth. Nice but not unique.
                          "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                            He was not an elite player. 40 HR at Wrigley clean. I mean good for him. Pre - '97 he was .257/.308/.469. He probably lost his speed because of steroid use. He was a poor mans Jayson Werth. Nice but not unique.
                            Wrigley is a pretty neutral park.

                            There's no other way of putting it, his power numbers were already elite level and he averaged close to 30 steals in that same five year window. From 1998 through 2001, he compiled perhaps the best four year stretch by any power hitter in the history of the game. I'd love to know what it takes to fulfill your definition of elite.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                              40 HR at Wrigley clean.
                              Something that's generally used as a cudgel to beat Andre Dawson over the head for his MVP award.
                              3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Joe33 View Post
                                Wrigley is a pretty neutral park.

                                There's no other way of putting it, his power numbers were already elite level and he averaged close to 30 steals in that same five year window. From 1998 through 2001, he compiled perhaps the best four year stretch by any power hitter in the history of the game. I'd love to know what it takes to fulfill your definition of elite.
                                Just curious if you really don't think Sammy Sosa used PED's?

                                I consider a particular season or stretch of seasons elite if a player didn't use supplements designed for farm animals.
                                "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                                Comment

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