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Players Overshadowed by Steroid Users

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
    Something that's generally used as a cudgel to beat Andre Dawson over the head for his MVP award.
    Don't get me wrong I don't fault anyone for it. By all means hit your HR. Lefties at Yankee Stadium, Chuck Klein at Baker Bowl. Do it up.
    "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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    • #47
      Everybody used PEDs the best players rise to the top.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by BondsOverBabe View Post
        Everybody used PEDs the best players rise to the top.
        WOW, thats news, never knew 100% of players used steroids.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
          Just curious if you really don't think Sammy Sosa used PED's?

          I consider a particular season or stretch of seasons elite if a player didn't use supplements designed for farm animals.
          I do think it's plausible that Sammy Sosa used steroids, but I also think most of the top performers of the era were using as well as many of the best pitchers. The point is, Sammy has about as much evidence against him as Carlos Delgado, Mike Piazza or any other top tier hitter playing at the time. He never tested positive under the MLB program. All we have is whispers and our own instincts judging his physique. For me, physical appearance says more than performance in distinguishing a possible user.

          I don't hold it against Sosa that he outperformed every other player in the same time frame. His levels were clearly elite and his numbers warrant Hall of Fame selection.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Joe33 View Post
            I do think it's plausible that Sammy Sosa used steroids, but I also think most of the top performers of the era were using as well as many of the best pitchers. The point is, Sammy has about as much evidence against him as Carlos Delgado, Mike Piazza or any other top tier hitter playing at the time. He never tested positive under the MLB program. All we have is whispers and our own instincts judging his physique. For me, physical appearance says more than performance in distinguishing a possible user.

            I don't hold it against Sosa that he outperformed every other player in the same time frame. His levels were clearly elite and his numbers warrant Hall of Fame selection.
            http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/column...ard&id=4264973

            http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ids/index.html

            http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...,5431727.story
            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Joe33 View Post
              Plenty of players were "blatantly obvious", but Sammy gets attention because he did things they couldn't do. Which makes your claim that he wasn't an elite player even more ridiculous. We'll just ignore the 600 home runs and three seasons of more than 60 HR. Nonsense.
              Prior to 1998, he reeled off a 5 year stretch of 170 HR, averaging 34 a season (take away the strike and time missed with injuries, and you're looking at 40 HR averaged per 162 games). He was already an elite level power hitter before he went crazy in 1998.
              Forget the elite definition.
              Were talking power and steroids.

              How did Sammy turn into Superman over those 4 seasons 1998-2001.
              The more accurate way to measure a hitters home run hitting ability is not always shown by total numbers.
              The most accurate measurment, AB/HR ratio.
              I'm starting from the year 1992 because before that Sammy was White Sox, different park.

              1992-1997 AB. 2990---HR 178----AB/HR ratio 16.7
              1998-2001 AB. 2449---HR 243----AB/HR ratio 10.0
              How does he do it, from a home run every 16 at bats to every 10 at bats, that drop is off the chart. Only two other players in that era chopped so much off their previous AB/HR ratio, Mac and Barry and we know what took place there.

              Some just don't want to see the obvious. Whats the explanation, he just got that much better and stronger, for no reason.
              He not only topped 60, he Averaged 60 home runs for 4 seasons. He wasn't even hitting an average of 40 before that.
              His rep is done, who will take all his numbers seriously even though they go into the book.
              Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 05-07-2012, 12:42 PM.

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              • #52
                The "2003 list" has never been confirmed as legitimate. For all we know, it's a complete fabrication and hoax.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
                  Forget the elite definition.
                  Were talking power and steroids.

                  How did Sammy turn into Superman over those 4 seasons 1998-2001.
                  The more accurate way to measure a hitters home run hitting ability is not always shown by total numbers.
                  The most accurate measurment, AB/HR ratio.
                  I'm starting from the year 1992 because before that Sammy was White Sox, different park.

                  1992-1997 AB. 2990---HR 178----AB/HR ratio 16.7
                  1998-2001 AB. 2449---HR 243----AB/HR ratio 10.0
                  How does he do it, from a home run every 16 at bats to every 10 at bats, that drop is off the chart. Only two other players in that era chopped so much off their previous AB/HR ratio, Mac and Barry and we know what took place there.

                  Some just don't want to see the obvious. Whats the explanation, he just got that much better and stronger, for no reason.
                  He not only topped 60, he Averaged 60 home runs for 4 seasons. He wasn't even hitting an average of 40 before that.
                  His rep is done, who will take all his numbers seriously even though they go into the book.
                  Like I said, I prefer to use my eyes, for me a player's physique is a more telling sign of use than his numbers. There are plenty of guys who had lousy numbers but looked so obvious, even more than so a Sosa or McGwire. Take a player like Pat Lennon for example. In his time with the A's (1997), he was perhaps the most obvious user in the league, yet he hit 1 HR in 131 ABs. Sosa very well may have used, but there's as much evidence against him as most of the other top tier players of the time.

                  If Sosa can't be taken seriously, as you say, then what of a player like Alex Rodriguez who has admitted use after denying it for years? Do you distinguish him from a Sammy Sosa, and if so, why?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Joe33,

                    Using these drugs is in every way detrimental to the sport of baseball, to sports in general.

                    Would you want to enter into a profession where there is a glass ceiling unless you want to inject the testosterone and/or estrogen of human or non-human male or female? Manny Ramirez's PED's were those produced by the placenta or fetus during different stages of embryonic development. HGH is used to treat children's growth disorders and is never prescribed to anyone who is not sick. Epitestosterone is produced in mammary cyst fluid in the prostate - tasty.

                    If you think using these substances is a reasonable expectation to place on someone to make an honest living, then that is your prerogative.

                    If you think it is ok to illegally acquire drugs normally prescribed to sick children and people with diseases to hit home runs, then that is also your prerogative.

                    I will assume that is not your opinion. Until you state you think those things are ok. :cap:
                    "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Joe33 View Post
                      The "2003 list" has never been confirmed as legitimate. For all we know, it's a complete fabrication and hoax.
                      Fair enough. It is out in the ethos tho. We really don't know. It was an asinine post on my part.
                      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                        Joe33,

                        Using these drugs is in every way detrimental to the sport of baseball, to sports in general.

                        Would you want to enter into a profession where there is a glass ceiling unless you want to inject the testosterone and/or estrogen of human or non-human male or female? Manny Ramirez's PED's were those produced by the placenta or fetus during different stages of embryonic development. HGH is used to treat children's growth disorders and is never prescribed to anyone who is not sick. Epitestosterone is produced in mammary cyst fluid in the prostate - tasty.

                        If you think using these substances is a reasonable expectation to place on someone to make an honest living, then that is your prerogative.

                        If you think it is ok to illegally acquire drugs normally prescribed to sick children and people with diseases to hit home runs, then that is also your prerogative.

                        I will assume that is not your opinion. Until you state you think those things are ok. :cap:
                        I took issue with your stating that Sosa was not an elite player, when clearly he was. His numbers were ridiculously so.

                        I'm not defending nor condemning steroid use. It happened, sorting out the users from the non-users or designating levels of guilt, etc is pointless. Hall of Fame voters don't know who used and who didn't, and if you believe Jose Canseco - who has been pretty accurate to date - there are already steroid users in the Hall of Fame.

                        No one would use estrogen for performance enhancement. Manny was using clomid or another similar substance to restart his natural testosterone production, part of what's known as "post cycle therapy" among those coming off a steroid cycle. The substances are banned in baseball for that reason, there's really no other reason a player would use them other than to recover from steroid/testosterone use.

                        My own personal opinions on steroid use have no bearing on the issues being debated here.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Joe33 View Post
                          I took issue with your stating that Sosa was not an elite player, when clearly he was. His numbers were ridiculously so.
                          The ends does not justify the means. Sammy Sosa would not be HoF caliber if not for PED's. Look at what someone has to put into their body to achieve what he did or any of the others did. Is this reasonable behavior?

                          Originally posted by Joe33 View Post
                          It happened, sorting out the users from the non-users or designating levels of guilt, etc is pointless.
                          The only way to stop the detrimental behavior is punishment. My one personal problem is Bonds. But I would much rather see him excluded than in.

                          I will agree designating levels of guilt is pointless. They are all guilty.

                          Originally posted by Joe33 View Post
                          No one would use estrogen for performance enhancement. Manny was using clomid or another similar substance to restart his natural testosterone production, part of what's known as "post cycle therapy" among those coming off a steroid cycle. The substances are banned in baseball for that reason, there's really no other reason a player would use them other than to recover from steroid/testosterone use.
                          He still needs to put it into his body.
                          "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Once again apathy toward steroids is equal to condoning it.

                            You will not have a job in this business unless you continually put these substances into your body. Illegally acquired drugs, with needles acquired from who?, administered by a teammate in a bathroom stall. Sounds great. Sounds like something everyone should want to do.

                            If the players do not think it inherently wrong or dangerous then why is/was it not done in the open? Why was/is it hush, hush? The players come out and apologize! This is not complete admission of guilt? Of wrong doing? Of immoral, non-condoned activity?
                            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Joe33 View Post
                              Like I said, I prefer to use my eyes, for me a player's physique is a more telling sign of use than his numbers. There are plenty of guys who had lousy numbers but looked so obvious, even more than so a Sosa or McGwire. Take a player like Pat Lennon for example. In his time with the A's (1997), he was perhaps the most obvious user in the league, yet he hit 1 HR in 131 ABs. Sosa very well may have used, but there's as much evidence against him as most of the other top tier players of the time.

                              If Sosa can't be taken seriously, as you say, then what of a player like Alex Rodriguez who has admitted use after denying it for years? Do you distinguish him from a Sammy Sosa, and if so, why?
                              AROD, he or any other is no different, not any better. Sammy's name is on the list but he still denies using. Only reason for not receiving a penalty, substance used was not banned at the time.
                              Also not giving AROD a free pass at least he doesn't come up with the phony excuse like so many others............must be a false reading or the old Barry Bonds Gary Sheffield BS line.....I was unaware of what I was using.

                              Sammy was a very good ballplayer, he made a mistake, Just like two great ballplayer, Bonds and Clemens, they tarnished their reputation, put some of their numbers in doubt.
                              Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 05-07-2012, 02:14 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Speaking of Sosa, talk about a player overshadowed by another juicer(s)! How can you hit over 60 dongs in three season and not lead the league in any of those seasons!

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