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Mickey Vernon vs Juan Gonzalez

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  • Mickey Vernon vs Juan Gonzalez

    I'm going to run a series of polls with the winner advancing each time to face another opponent. Will leave each poll up for a week. I'll try to provide as much statistical information as possible. Hopefully we can get some lively insightful debates going and bring to light some overlooked players from yesteryear.
    If you could pick between these two players to start your franchise with which would you pick? Please consider all relavent information. Their careers as a whole, peak performance, hitting, fielding, baserunning, positional value, league quality, etc.

    Mickey Vernon

    2409 games
    9838 plate appearances
    8731 at-bats
    1196 runs
    2495 hits
    490 doubles
    120 triples
    172 home runs
    1311 RBI
    137 stolen bases
    90 caught stealing
    955 walks
    869 strikeouts
    .286 AVG
    .359 OBP
    .428 SLG
    .787 OPS
    116 OPS+
    3741 total bases
    1344 runs created
    5.4 RC/G
    99 AIR
    .595 OW%
    .736 Total Average
    .257 Secondary Average
    292.6 Win Shares
    122.6 WSAB
    41.0 WARP1
    26.5 WARP3
    30.1 rWAR
    44.5 fWAR
    21.4 sWAR

    Juan Gonzalez

    1689 games
    7155 plate appearances
    6556 at-bats
    1061 runs
    1936 hits
    388 doubles
    25 triples
    434 home runs
    1404 RBI
    26 stolen bases
    19 caught stealing
    457 walks
    1273 strikeouts
    .295 AVG
    .343 OBP
    .561 SLG
    .904 OPS
    132 OPS+
    3676 total bases
    1222 runs created
    6.7 RC/G
    108 AIR
    .623 OW%
    .871 Total Average
    .336 Secondary Average
    233.1 Win Shares
    113.1 WSAB
    33.5 WARP1
    36.8 WARP3
    34.9 rWAR
    38.6 fWAR
    31.8 sWAR

    Previous results

    Willie Montanez vs Dave Kingman
    Dave Kingman vs Dante Bichette
    Dave Kingman vs Jose Guillen
    Dave Kingman vs Dave Philley
    Dave Kingman vs Shano Collins
    Dave Kingman vs Eric Karros
    Dave Kingman vs Charlie Grimm
    Charlie Grimm vs Juan Gonzalez
    Juan Gonzalez vs Bill Buckner
    Juan Gonzalez vs Ruben Sierra
    Juan Gonzalez vs Gee Walker
    Juan Gonzalez vs Patsy Donovan
    Juan Gonzalez vs Joe Carter
    Juan Gonzalez vs Tommy Davis
    Juan Gonzalez vs Charlie Jamieson
    Juan Gonzalez vs Jeff Conine
    Juan Gonzalez vs Hal Chase
    Juan Gonzalez vs Lee May
    Juan Gonzalez vs Joe Kuhel
    Juan Gonzalez vs Willie Horton
    Juan Gonzalez vs Chris Chambliss
    Juan Gonzalez vs Hal McRae
    Juan Gonzalez vs Andres Galarraga
    Juan Gonzalez vs George Hendrick
    Juan Gonzalez vs Garret Anderson
    Juan Gonzalez vs George Burns
    Juan Gonzalez vs Wally Moses
    Juan Gonzalez vs Del Ennis
    Juan Gonzalez vs Don Baylor
    Juan Gonzalez vs Shawn Green
    Juan Gonzalez vs Stuffy McInnis
    Juan Gonzalez vs Wally Pipp
    Juan Gonzalez vs Gary Matthews
    Juan Gonzalez vs Bobby Bonilla
    15
    Mickey Vernon
    60.00%
    9
    Juan Gonzalez
    40.00%
    6

    The poll is expired.

    My dream ballpark dimensions
    LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
    RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
    Location....San Diego

  • #2
    I wouldn't have Juan Gonzalez if you gift wrapped him.
    Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

    Comment


    • #3
      I've always been partial to Vernon myself.

      Comment


      • #4
        Pardon my ignorance, but why are Vernon's warps and wars all over the place while Juan's are fairly close together?
        Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

        Comment


        • #5
          I picked Vernon, although its hard to explain why.

          Any idea who was better defensively?
          “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” Walter Lippmann

          "Fill in any figure you want for that boy (Mantle). Whatever the figure, it's a deal." - Branch Rickey

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
            Pardon my ignorance, but why are Vernon's warps and wars all over the place while Juan's are fairly close together?
            Bill James asked that question many moons ago.His theory was that Vernon,who came up in 1939(Gehrig`s last year-and only a few games at that)was brought up in a play when your hurt era.Gehrig`s shadow loomed large.I remember reading an interview with Vernon made some 20 years ago in Baseball Digest,where he said that he felt he hit the ball harder and better during some of his .250-ish seasons than he did during his batting title seasons-it was just a matter of luck(good and bad),more of his drives found a safe landing spot when he won the batting titles.Playing in Washington and missing two years to the War didn`t help matters much.Mickey didn`t mention having to indure injuries,but then he was the strong,silent type.

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm almost sure that Vernon had some significant injury/illness during 1 or 2 of his curious "off" seasons. I'm away from home and don't have any of my research books, so I can't pinpoint anything. Maybe someone else can. Vernon had a reputation as a top flight defender at first base, to answer somebody's question.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by BigRon View Post
                I'm almost sure that Vernon had some significant injury/illness during 1 or 2 of his curious "off" seasons. I'm away from home and don't have any of my research books, so I can't pinpoint anything. Maybe someone else can. Vernon had a reputation as a top flight defender at first base, to answer somebody's question.
                Didn't Bill James claim that Vernon got a nasty infection from getting a fishhook stuck in his behind that messed him up for a long time?
                I think Vernon could have had a HOF career with better health and luck, and Juan's special nutrition package probably would have helped him a lot, too.
                "If I drink whiskey, I'll never get worms!" - Hack Wilson

                Comment


                • #9
                  Wow! This is much closer than I thought it would be. I have Gonzalez by a considerable margin. Gonzalez put up some huge numbers during his prime. Per 162 games played, he averaged 42 HRs and 135 RBIs, while going .295/.343/.561. It's too bad he hurt himself too much. Perhaps he was too musclebound.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nimrod View Post
                    Bill James asked that question many moons ago.His theory was that Vernon,who came up in 1939(Gehrig`s last year-and only a few games at that)was brought up in a play when your hurt era.Gehrig`s shadow loomed large.I remember reading an interview with Vernon made some 20 years ago in Baseball Digest,where he said that he felt he hit the ball harder and better during some of his .250-ish seasons than he did during his batting title seasons-it was just a matter of luck(good and bad),more of his drives found a safe landing spot when he won the batting titles.Playing in Washington and missing two years to the War didn`t help matters much.Mickey didn`t mention having to indure injuries,but then he was the strong,silent type.
                    Thanks, Nimrod. Interesting stuff. I knew the rough outline, but those details add a lot.

                    I actually wanted to know about about the inconsistencies among Vernon's career warp scores (warp1, warp3) and career war scores (fwar, swar, and rwar) which are all spread out, while Gonzales's are fairly close together. It's really more a question about war and warp than about Goodman.

                    Is it just a coincidence that these evaluators agree for Gonzales? Or is there something about Goodman's career that finds the points of disagreement among the evaluators?
                    Last edited by Jackaroo Dave; 05-17-2012, 04:51 PM.
                    Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by BigRon View Post
                      I'm almost sure that Vernon had some significant injury/illness during 1 or 2 of his curious "off" seasons. I'm away from home and don't have any of my research books, so I can't pinpoint anything. .
                      Well, we know he didn't use steroids, so it wasn't that his muscles became overdeveloped in relation to his ligaments and tendons, thereby upping the risk of injury.



                      Originally posted by pheasant View Post
                      Gonzalez put up some huge numbers during his prime. It's too bad he hurt himself too much. Perhaps he was too musclebound.
                      Yeah. That's probably it.

                      Comment

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