Question about baseball in St. Louis, Philadelphia, and Boston pre 1950s

[PeteU]

In the 1950s, the Philadelphia A's moved to Kansas City (who would then move to Oakland), the Boston Braves moved to Milwaukee (who would then move to Atlanta) and the St. Louis Browns moved to Baltimore.

My question for baseball history buffs--these teams moved from cities where there had been a two-team market. Before they moved, how did the A's stack up with the Phillies in terms of popularity? The Braves stack up with the Red Sox? The Browns stack up with the Cardinals?

My impression--and I may be wrong on this, so don't quote me--was that the A's were once bigger in Philly than the Phillies, but that the Browns and Braves were always second fiddle to the Cards and Red Sox. Am I right about this?

[westsidegrounds]

In St Louis, it was pretty much neck and neck until the Cards won the pennant in 1926. If the Browns had won in 1922, they might still be there. (But the Cardinals would have had to move to Baltimore, or Milwaukee, or maybe Arizona.)

[chicagowhitesox1173]

Attendance in Philadelphia has been kinda strange when the A's were good during the first A's dynasty they averaged more fans but immediatly after Connie Macks first fire sale the 1915 Phillies became the main attraction. These are the attendance figures for both teams for average attendance.

1901 Phillies-3405 A's-3126
1902 A's-5754 Phillies-1624
1903 A's-6306 Phillies-2487
1904 A's-6485 Phillies-1928
1905 A's-7494 Phillies-4183
1906 A's-6700 Phillies-3827
1907 A's-8570 Phillies-4550
1908 A's-5834 Phillies-5393
1909 A's-8880 Phillies-3937
1910 A's-7550 Phillies-3803
1911 A's-8077 Phillies-5474
1912 A's-6723 Phillies-3333
1913 A's-7525 Phillies-6026
1914 A's-4444 Phillies-1775
1915 Phillies-5920 A's-1976
1916 Phillies-6524 A's-2427
1917 Phillies-4664 A's-2914
1918 A's-2617 Phillies-2145
1919 Phillies-3386 A's-3217
1920 Phillies-4299 A's-3739
1921 A's-4473 Phillies-3605
1922 A's-5453 Phillies-3019
1923 A's-7122 Phillies-3042
1924 A's-7093 Phillies-3945
1925 A's-11,295 Phillies-3960
1926 A's-10,063 Phillies-3166
1927 A's-7864 Phillies-3916
1928 A's-8958 Phillies-2429
1929 A's-11,340 Phillies-3700
1930 A's-9496 Phillies-3883
1931 A's-8366 Phillies-3748
1932 A's-5266 Phillies-3492
1933 A's-3910 Phillies-2173
1934 A's-4024 Phillies-2393
1935 A's-3239 Phillies-2601
1936 A's-3704 Phillies-3195
1937 A's-5452 Phillies-2876
1938 A's-5070 Phillies-2215
1939 A's-5198 Phillies-3756
1940 A's-6087 Phillies-2622
1941 A's-6869 Phillies-3045
1942 A's-5572 Phillies-3111
1943 Phillies-5987 A's-4769
1944 A's-6649 Phillies-4678
1945 A's-6008 Phillies-3702
1946 Phillies-13,401 A's-7972--This doesnt make sense to me
1947 Phillies-11,784 A's-11,687
1948 A's-12,274 Phillies-10,098
1949 Phillies-10,645 A's-10,604
1950 Phillies-15,603 A's-4023
1951 Phillies-12,177 A's-5892
1952 Phillies-9940 A's-8040
1953 Phillies-10,944 A's-4642
1954 Phillies-9474 A's-3957

I dont know what to think of Philadelphia fans its either they are very fair weathered or they really love a underdog. It's hard for me to believe that they could just throw the A's away for the Phillies.

[EdTarbusz]

In 1951 Cardinals owner Fred Saigh was indicted for income tax evasion and he nearly sold the Cardinals to a group that would move the team to Milwaukee. The other owners stepped in and wouldn't ratify the sale in part because Saigh had been instrumental in getting rid of Commissioner Happy Chandler. Saigh was forced to sell the team for less money to August Busch. Before this in the early 50s I think that the Cardinals and Browns were about equal in St Louis. When Bill Veeck purchased the Browns in 1951 he realistically thought that he could compete with the Cardinals and chase them out of St Louis.

[chicagowhitesox1173]

In 1951 Cardinals owner Fred Saigh was indicted for income tax evasion and he nearly sold the Cardinals to a group that would move the team to Milwaukee. The other owners stepped in and wouldn't ratify the sale in part because Saigh had been instrumental in getting rid of Commissioner Happy Chandler. Saigh was forced to sell the team for less money to August Busch. Before this in the early 50s I think that the Cardinals and Browns were about equal in St Louis. When Bill Veeck purchased the Browns in 1951 he realistically thought that he could compete with the Cardinals and chase them out of St Louis.

If they were equal it wasnt by attendance. The Cardinals killed em every year for attendance.

[EdTarbusz]

If they were equal it wasnt by attendance. The Cardinals killed em every year for attendance.

By 1950 I think they had an equal chance of leaving St Louis.

[chicagowhitesox1173]

By 1950 I think they had an equal chance of leaving St Louis.

Yeah i'm not sure on that but neither team really drew too many fans even during the Cardinals WS years. The Browns had a nice attendance year in 1922. But from 1882 till 1945 neither team ever averaged over 10,000 fans in a season. The Cardinals almost did it in 1928 with 9891 fans and the Cardinals only averaged over 9000 two times during that span and the Browns once in 1922.

The Browns low mark was in 1935 with 1065 and the Cardinals low mark was (excluding pre 1901) was in 1918 with 1515 fans.

[chicagowhitesox1173]

I still am curious why the 1946 Phillies tripled in attendance. They must have had some kind of promotion that year. Maybe WW2 vets got half off. I know every team in both leagues gained due to the war being over but why did the Phillies gain so much and the A's gain so little. 1947 both teams kinda evened out but the Phillies had to have had some sort of promotion during the 46 season.

[EdTarbusz]

I still am curious why the 1946 Phillies tripled in attendance. They must have had some kind of promotion that year. Maybe WW2 vets got half off. I know every team in both leagues gained due to the war being over but why did the Phillies gain so much and the A's gain so little. 1947 both teams kinda evened out but the Phillies had to have had some sort of promotion during the 46 season.

In 1946 the Phillies finished fifth. From 1936 to 1945 the Phillies finished seventh twice and eighth eight times. The team was actually winning some games and had relatively new ownership that was spending some on the team and bringing up some promising young players. The 1946 Athletics won only 49 games and Connie mack had made some underhanded deals with returning veterans.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

In St Louis, it was pretty much neck and neck until the Cards won the pennant in 1926. If the Browns had won in 1922, they might still be there. (But the Cardinals would have had to move to Baltimore, or Milwaukee, or maybe Arizona.)

The 1922 St. Louis Browns is a completely forgotten team. This is easily the Browns greatest team ever.

http://www.amazon.com/1922-St-Louis-...3828981&sr=1-1

[ol' aches and pains]

The 1922 St. Louis Browns is a completely forgotten team. This is easily the Browns greatest team ever.

http://www.amazon.com/1922-St-Louis-...3828981&sr=1-1

I don't know, but I would guess the average baseball fan never heard of the St. Louis Browns, period. People don't care about history for the most part. The History Channel on cable hardly has any actual history programming anymore. If the film is in black&white, nobody will watch it.

[sgb]

Yes, the former history channel. But history is an odd thing, something I've always found fascinating, but it's still an odd thing. Was thinking the other day that when I was growing up, the A's left Philadelphia within the decade, but I don't know if I ever realized they had been there so recently, or even that World War II had only ended the decade before that.

[StanTheMan]

By 1950 I think they had an equal chance of leaving St Louis.

Agreed.

My father/grandfather etc frequently talked about the idea that the Cards were not far and away more cemented in St. Louis than the Browns. It was much closer to an equal situation than people realized. The Cards great success during the Anheuser-Busch years have completely wiped out what was a very real situation where the early teams both had the ear of the local baseball fan.

Don't forget, the Browns owner (Ball family) owned Sportsmans Park until his death in 1936. Even though the family sold the team at that point, the Ball Estate kept the park, selling it to the Browns in 1946. The Browns had played at the site since 1875 (in the National Association) originally called the Grand Avenue Ball Grounds, and in the American Association and later National League - GREAT Browns teams in the 1880's.

Bill Veeck may have viewed the tax evasion problems of Fred Saigh of the Cardinals as a good thing for his team from a business perspective, but the sale of the Cards to A.B. effectively ended the Browns tenure in St. Louis. The brewery had the $ to bring Sportsmans Park up to code - Veeck did not.

August Busch bought the Cards, AND Sportsmans Park. Game over for the Browns...

[westsidegrounds]

Agreed.

My father/grandfather etc frequently talked about the idea that the Cards were not far and away more cemented in St. Louis than the Browns. It was much closer to an equal situation than people realized. The Cards great success during the Anheuser-Busch years have completely wiped out what was a very real situation where the early teams both had the ear of the local baseball fan.

The Browns outdrew the Cardinals as late as 1944 ...

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I don't know, but I would guess the average baseball fan never heard of the St. Louis Browns, period. People don't care about history for the most part. The History Channel on cable hardly has any actual history programming anymore. If the film is in black&white, nobody will watch it.

Oh sure. But even among baseball fans like we have here at BBF the 1922 Browns team is never discussed. I never heard about this team until I stumbled onto the book I linked to in my previous post about 5-6 years ago.