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Mickey Vernon vs Jose Canseco

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  • Mickey Vernon vs Jose Canseco

    I'm going to run a series of polls with the winner advancing each time to face another opponent. Will leave each poll up for a week. I'll try to provide as much statistical information as possible. Hopefully we can get some lively insightful debates going and bring to light some overlooked players from yesteryear.
    If you could pick between these two players to start your franchise with which would you pick? Please consider all relavent information. Their careers as a whole, peak performance, hitting, fielding, baserunning, positional value, league quality, etc.

    Mickey Vernon

    2409 games
    9838 plate appearances
    8731 at-bats
    1196 runs
    2495 hits
    490 doubles
    120 triples
    172 home runs
    1311 RBI
    137 stolen bases
    90 caught stealing
    955 walks
    869 strikeouts
    .286 AVG
    .359 OBP
    .428 SLG
    .787 OPS
    116 OPS+
    3741 total bases
    1344 runs created
    5.4 RC/G
    99 AIR
    .595 OW%
    .736 Total Average
    .257 Secondary Average
    292.6 Win Shares
    122.6 WSAB
    41.0 WARP1
    26.5 WARP3
    30.1 rWAR
    44.5 fWAR
    21.4 sWAR

    Jose Canseco

    1887 games
    8129 plate appearances
    7057 at-bats
    1186 runs
    1877 hits
    340 doubles
    14 triples
    462 home runs
    1407 RBI
    200 stolen bases
    88 caught stealing
    906 walks
    1942 strikeouts
    .266 AVG
    .353 OBP
    .515 SLG
    .867 OPS
    132 OPS+
    3631 total bases
    1292 runs created
    6.2 RC/G
    101 AIR
    .609 OW%
    .869 Total Average
    .393 Secondary Average
    270.3 Win Shares
    142.4 WSAB
    41.5 WARP1
    44.6 WARP3
    39.2 rWAR
    45.9 fWAR
    40.7 sWAR

    Previous results

    Willie Montanez vs Dave Kingman
    Dave Kingman vs Dante Bichette
    Dave Kingman vs Jose Guillen
    Dave Kingman vs Dave Philley
    Dave Kingman vs Shano Collins
    Dave Kingman vs Eric Karros
    Dave Kingman vs Charlie Grimm
    Charlie Grimm vs Juan Gonzalez
    Juan Gonzalez vs Bill Buckner
    Juan Gonzalez vs Ruben Sierra
    Juan Gonzalez vs Gee Walker
    Juan Gonzalez vs Patsy Donovan
    Juan Gonzalez vs Joe Carter
    Juan Gonzalez vs Tommy Davis
    Juan Gonzalez vs Charlie Jamieson
    Juan Gonzalez vs Jeff Conine
    Juan Gonzalez vs Hal Chase
    Juan Gonzalez vs Lee May
    Juan Gonzalez vs Joe Kuhel
    Juan Gonzalez vs Willie Horton
    Juan Gonzalez vs Chris Chambliss
    Juan Gonzalez vs Hal McRae
    Juan Gonzalez vs Andres Galarraga
    Juan Gonzalez vs George Hendrick
    Juan Gonzalez vs Garret Anderson
    Juan Gonzalez vs George Burns
    Juan Gonzalez vs Wally Moses
    Juan Gonzalez vs Del Ennis
    Juan Gonzalez vs Don Baylor
    Juan Gonzalez vs Shawn Green
    Juan Gonzalez vs Stuffy McInnis
    Juan Gonzalez vs Wally Pipp
    Juan Gonzalez vs Gary Matthews
    Juan Gonzalez vs Bobby Bonilla
    Juan Gonzalez vs Mickey Vernon
    16
    Mickey Vernon
    56.25%
    9
    Jose Canseco
    43.75%
    7

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by Sockeye; 05-19-2012, 07:39 AM.
    My dream ballpark dimensions
    LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
    RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
    Location....San Diego

  • #2
    Originally posted by Sockeye View Post

    If you could pick between these two players to start your franchise with which would you pick?
    I'd pick the guy who isn't Jose Canseco.

    Comment


    • #3
      You can play the steroids issue with Canseco, but you better be even handed and play it with most other sluggers of the same period.

      Also, Canseco played at a level only a few other steroid users could match. I can't think of a player who ever had better bat speed than Canseco in his prime.

      Comment


      • #4
        Wasn't Canseco doing it before "everyone" else was so it wasn't quite the level playing field so to speak. I would say w/o the steroids he would have the career of his twin Ozzie, but IIRC Ozzie Canseco used steroids as well.

        Comment


        • #5
          Lets examine a few of the numbers. Start with WAR

          Vernon...Canseco

          1. 5.2...7.1
          2. 5.1...5.6
          3. 3.5...5.0
          top 3 (13.8)...(17.7)
          4. 3.4...2.8
          5. 2.2...2.8
          top 5 (19.4)...(23.3)
          6. 2.1...2.8
          7. 1.9...2.5
          8. 1.9...2.4
          9. 1.8...2.1
          10. 1.7...2.0
          top 10 (28.8)...(32.3)
          My dream ballpark dimensions
          LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
          RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
          Location....San Diego

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Sockeye View Post
            Lets examine a few of the numbers. Start with WAR

            Vernon...Canseco

            1. 5.2...7.1
            2. 5.1...5.6
            3. 3.5...5.0
            top 3 (13.8)...(17.7)
            4. 3.4...2.8
            5. 2.2...2.8
            top 5 (19.4)...(23.3)
            6. 2.1...2.8
            7. 1.9...2.5
            8. 1.9...2.4
            9. 1.8...2.1
            10. 1.7...2.0
            top 10 (28.8)...(32.3)
            if it's just a matter of comparing numbers, why bother having a poll?

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't want Canseco on my club and Vernon was a pretty good player.
              Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by westsidegrounds View Post
                if it's just a matter of comparing numbers, why bother having a poll?
                if the numbers don't matter, why bother keeping stats?
                My dream ballpark dimensions
                LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
                RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
                Location....San Diego

                Comment


                • #9
                  Canseco would likely be clubhouse poison. He struck out too much and performed atrociously when it mattered most, in the playoffs. He was injured too much (from 1986 to 1999, he averaged only 127 games a year).

                  Vernon was a guy who lost two prime years of his career to WWII. Had he played those years, he would have had about 2,800 hits and may have made a run at 3,000. Excluding his years serving in the military, Vernon played less than 140 games only once between 1942 and 1955.

                  Advanced stats like WAR and OPS+ can say what they will, I'd take Vernon over Canseco any day.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I went with Vernon, but it was close, and I tried not to be too swayed by my dislike for the PED question. But when you add in the two lost years, which I think is fair, I think that pulls Vernon slightly ahead.
                    http://baseballevaluation.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by sgb View Post
                      I went with Vernon, but it was close, and I tried not to be too swayed by my dislike for the PED question. But when you add in the two lost years, which I think is fair, I think that pulls Vernon slightly ahead.
                      The problem is the question is "start your franchise with" if it is in a pre-PED time then would Canseco or any PED player be as good, conversely if you pumped a player from a non-PED era full of PEDs in an era when some or most but presumably not all used wouldn't he fare better.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        For what it's worth, Vernon was one of the worst defensive 1B of all-time according to dWAR.

                        He had 10 seasons of negative WAR Runs Fielding:
                        Code:
                                                                           
                        Rk                 Yrs From   To                Age
                        1   Willie McCovey  14 1960 1980 22-42 Ind. Seasons
                        2        Hal Chase  13 1905 1919 22-36 Ind. Seasons
                        3     Fred McGriff  12 1990 2003 26-39 Ind. Seasons
                        4    Jim Bottomley  12 1922 1937 22-37 Ind. Seasons
                        5     Paul Konerko  11 1997 2012 21-36 Ind. Seasons
                        6    Mickey Vernon  10 1939 1958 21-40 Ind. Seasons
                        7    Jack Fournier  10 1916 1927 26-37 Ind. Seasons
                        8      Fred Merkle  10 1907 1920 18-31 Ind. Seasons

                        And 13 seasons of non-positive WAR Runs Fielding:
                        Code:
                                                                           
                        Rk                 Yrs From   To                Age
                        1   Willie McCovey  15 1960 1980 22-42 Ind. Seasons
                        2    Jim Bottomley  14 1922 1937 22-37 Ind. Seasons
                        3    Mickey Vernon  13 1939 1958 21-40 Ind. Seasons
                        4        Hal Chase  13 1905 1919 22-36 Ind. Seasons
                        5     Fred McGriff  12 1990 2003 26-39 Ind. Seasons
                        6     Paul Konerko  12 1997 2012 21-36 Ind. Seasons
                        7      Fred Merkle  12 1907 1926 18-37 Ind. Seasons
                        Total WAR Runs Fielding = -22 = tied for 44th worst all-time 1B
                        Last edited by dgarza; 05-25-2012, 01:29 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dgarza View Post
                          For what it's worth, Vernon was one of the worst defensive 1B of all-time according to dWAR.

                          He had 10 seasons of negative WAR Runs Fielding:
                          Code:
                                                                             
                          Rk                 Yrs From   To                Age
                          1   Willie McCovey  14 1960 1980 22-42 Ind. Seasons
                          2        Hal Chase  13 1905 1919 22-36 Ind. Seasons
                          3     Fred McGriff  12 1990 2003 26-39 Ind. Seasons
                          4    Jim Bottomley  12 1922 1937 22-37 Ind. Seasons
                          5     Paul Konerko  11 1997 2012 21-36 Ind. Seasons
                          6    Mickey Vernon  10 1939 1958 21-40 Ind. Seasons
                          7    Jack Fournier  10 1916 1927 26-37 Ind. Seasons
                          8      Fred Merkle  10 1907 1920 18-31 Ind. Seasons

                          And 13 seasons of non-positive WAR Runs Fielding:
                          Code:
                                                                             
                          Rk                 Yrs From   To                Age
                          1   Willie McCovey  15 1960 1980 22-42 Ind. Seasons
                          2    Jim Bottomley  14 1922 1937 22-37 Ind. Seasons
                          3    Mickey Vernon  13 1939 1958 21-40 Ind. Seasons
                          4        Hal Chase  13 1905 1919 22-36 Ind. Seasons
                          5     Fred McGriff  12 1990 2003 26-39 Ind. Seasons
                          6     Paul Konerko  12 1997 2012 21-36 Ind. Seasons
                          7      Fred Merkle  12 1907 1926 18-37 Ind. Seasons
                          Total WAR Runs Fielding = -22 = tied for 44th worst all-time 1B
                          So Canseco was better hitting, better fielding, and better on the bases. Interesting....
                          My dream ballpark dimensions
                          LF: 388 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
                          RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
                          Location....San Diego

                          Comment

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