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  • Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
    Yes - if a win was guaranteed, I'd much rather watch one starter than 5 pitchers. But I'd still rather win probability to be increased however possible. Its like you say you know your #1 on your list is true but don't really believe it.
    I believe it if it is the closer coming in for the 9th over the starter (or even the previous pitcher), but I don't believe it when the plan is to get 5 or 6 from the starter, and then string along a bunch of one inning pitchers. I just don't like the thought process of hoping the next 3 or 4 guys are all going to be "on" that day.



    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
    If you say that you want to be entertained by watching starters only - fine. Nobody can argue with personal preference.
    To be honest, I'd rather go back to the 1980's and expect the starter to complete the game and only have a 5 man pen.
    The two of them (Reggie Jackson and George Steinbrenner) deserve each other. One's a born liar; the other's convicted. - Billy Martin
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    • Originally posted by willshad View Post
      I miss the great teams, filled with star players. When I watch old games, especially playoff games, it seems like the majority of the teams had a bunch of great players on them. Nowadays, even the All Star game doesn't have many stars on it. It used to be unthinkable that a team could win the WS without several HOFers on it, or at least several HOF type players. I'm not sure if it's due to expansion spreading the talent around, or a bad time in baseball history...but if a team like the 2015 Royals can win the World Series , then something is wrong.

      I was watching a random playoff game, with the 1982 Angels and Brewers in it, and I remember thinking to myself that their lineups were better than the 2015 All Star teams.

      I also miss the time when pitchers were expected to complete their starts. They used to be warriors, gutting it out whether they had their best stuff or not; nowadays they're just trying to pitch a few good innings until the relief guys come in.
      A lot of those guys we thought were great in the 90's because they hit 30 HRs even though they really weren't that good. That is what happens when the era allows for 180 lb. middle infielders to hit 20-25 homeruns per year. I mean look at Jeff Kent. He never hit more than 21 HRs in a season or had an OPS+ over 111 in a season (up to age 29) and then in 1997 became the "Babe Ruth of 2B."

      Anyway, 30 years from now, when tons of these guys are in the HOF - they will look much more star-filled than they do now.
      Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 01-07-2016, 01:07 PM.
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      • Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
        I believe it if it is the closer coming in for the 9th over the starter (or even the previous pitcher), but I don't believe it when the plan is to get 5 or 6 from the starter, and then string along a bunch of one inning pitchers. I just don't like the thought process of hoping the next 3 or 4 guys are all going to be "on" that day.





        To be honest, I'd rather go back to the 1980's and expect the starter to complete the game and only have a 5 man pen.
        And that is fine. Just as long as we acknowledge that our preferences might not actually be best practice in terms of winning.

        And yes -even middle relievers have better ERA's the first time through the order than good starters. It is a fact - prefer it or not. I am not saying I like to see Seth Maness 70 times a year either - but if it help the team win...Kind of a necessary evil. Your starter being bad in the 7th, 8th, or 9th is higher than the odds of any one reliever being bad in one inning, fresh, facing platoon advantages, and facing the order for the first time. Believe it or prefer it or not...but it is true.
        1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

        1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

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        • Nevermind.....
          1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

          1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

          1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


          The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
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          • Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
            And that is fine. Just as long as we acknowledge that our preferences might not actually be best practice in terms of winning.

            And yes -even middle relievers have better ERA's the first time through the order than good starters. It is a fact - prefer it or not. I am not saying I like to see Seth Maness 70 times a year either - but if it help the team win...Kind of a necessary evil. Your starter being bad in the 7th, 8th, or 9th is higher than the odds of any one reliever being bad in one inning, fresh, facing platoon advantages, and facing the order for the first time. Believe it or prefer it or not...but it is true.
            Sure, for a one on one comparison. My point is that I don't trust three of those jokers in a row. One of them will be bad - blame biorhythms if you want.
            The two of them (Reggie Jackson and George Steinbrenner) deserve each other. One's a born liar; the other's convicted. - Billy Martin
            Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

            Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

            Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

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            • Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
              Sure, for a one on one comparison. My point is that I don't trust three of those jokers in a row. One of them will be bad - blame biorhythms if you want.
              Tree relievers are likely to give up fewer runs in the 7th, 8th, and 9th individually and together than a starter pitching all three. Again, not everytime - but a majority of the time. The chance of starter blowing it in one of those three innings is greater than one of the three relievers. Yes- it can be boring, but facts are fact even if I don't like them to be.
              1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

              1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

              1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


              The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
              The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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              • Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
                Sure, for a one on one comparison. My point is that I don't trust three of those jokers in a row. One of them will be bad - blame biorhythms if you want.
                Tree relievers are likely to give up fewer runs in the 7th, 8th, and 9th individually and together than a starter pitching all three. Again, not everytime - but a majority of the time. The chance of starter blowing it in one of those three innings is greater than one of the three relievers. Yes- it can be boring, but facts are fact even if I don't like them to be.
                1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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                • Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
                  Tree relievers are likely to give up fewer runs in the 7th, 8th, and 9th individually and together than a starter pitching all three. Again, not everytime - but a majority of the time. The chance of starter blowing it in one of those three innings is greater than one of the three relievers. Yes- it can be boring, but facts are fact even if I don't like them to be.
                  Do you have a link for that? I'd like to review the actual case occurrences if possible.
                  Last edited by Toledo Inquisition; 01-07-2016, 02:08 PM.
                  The two of them (Reggie Jackson and George Steinbrenner) deserve each other. One's a born liar; the other's convicted. - Billy Martin
                  Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

                  Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

                  Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

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                  • Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
                    Do you have a link for that? I'd like to review the actual case occurrences if possible.
                    These 3 links pretty much tell the story.
                    http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...ear=2015#innng
                    http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...ear=2015#times
                    http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...ear=2015#pitco

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Victory Faust View Post
                      Yeah. Moments in between the action that allow for reflection and conversation, with a background murmur accompanied by shouts from the vendor and the guy two rows down bellowing about the manager's use of the bullpen.

                      It's all been drowned out by nonstop blaring of Gary Glitter and The Banana Boat Song.


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                      I've been a Mariners fan since 89ish and I don't think I've ever heard Rock and Roll Part 2 played. It was better suited for basketball anyway.
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                      • Thank you - I am not doubting these charts.

                        What I'm saying is that I more rarely see three pitchers brought into a game without one of them not being "on." With three pitchers brought in, one of them will have an off day and give up a run or two to blow the lead.
                        The two of them (Reggie Jackson and George Steinbrenner) deserve each other. One's a born liar; the other's convicted. - Billy Martin
                        Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

                        Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

                        Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

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                        • Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
                          Thank you - I am not doubting these charts.

                          What I'm saying is that I more rarely see three pitchers brought into a game without one of them not being "on." With three pitchers brought in, one of them will have an off day and give up a run or two to blow the lead.
                          Teams should be expected to score a run every three innings (more like 1.4 runs per 3 innings actually) and each run is magnified contextually in the score because of the low scoring environment. Seeing a run or two given up from the 6th-9th is expected for starters and relievers. If a bullpen gave up one run every 3 innings they pitched - that would be a great bullpen. The reason it seems like constant blown leads is because games are so low scoring now. Every run seems like a tying run. I think you are forgetting all the times you have seen starters give up runs late. They do - and a lot more than early in games. The starters are more likely to give up that typing run than the relievers are.

                          Since most relievers only go one inning - and relievers do better 7-9 than starters, it stands to reason that individually the relievers are doing better as well as collectively than the starters.
                          Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 01-07-2016, 02:46 PM.
                          1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                          1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                          1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                          The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                          The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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                          • Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post

                            What I'm saying is that I more rarely see three pitchers brought into a game without one of them not being "on." With three pitchers brought in, one of them will have an off day and give up a run or two to blow the lead.
                            Will have an off day? In the 2015 World Series, Madson, Hochevar, Herrera, & Davis combined for 17 IP and 0 ER.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
                              That is because games are low scoring and given runs per game- teams should be expected to score a run every three innings (more like 1.4 runs per 3 innings actually) and each run is magnified contextually in the score because of the low scoring environment. I think you are forgetting all the times you have seen starters give up runs late. they do - and a lot more than early in games.
                              I don't have the time right now, but some day I'll analyze, say, 7-10 seasons of individual box scores from the White Sox to prove my point (or be proven wrong). Bothrops, pester me on it occasionally so I don't forget.


                              Originally posted by ipitch View Post
                              Will have an off day? In the 2015 World Series, Madson, Hochevar, Herrera, & Davis combined for 17 IP and 0 ER.
                              Okay, "will, in the majority of time, have an off day." The Mets weren't so great, were they?
                              Last edited by Toledo Inquisition; 01-07-2016, 03:01 PM.
                              The two of them (Reggie Jackson and George Steinbrenner) deserve each other. One's a born liar; the other's convicted. - Billy Martin
                              Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

                              Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

                              Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
                                I don't have the time right now, but some day I'll analyze, say, 7-10 seasons of individual box scores from the White Sox to prove my point (or be proven wrong). Bothrops, pester me on it occasionally so I don't forget.




                                Okay, will in the majority of time, have an off day.
                                That isn't necessary. You were just provided links for the entire MLB for an entire season. Relievers are better in innings 7-9 than starters - even good starters. Even with one or two having off days sometimes.
                                1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                                1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                                1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                                The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                                The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                                Comment

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