Where will we ultimately rank Alex Rodriquez and Albert Pujols as All-Time Playeres?

[Bill Burgess]

I like to muse the historical questions. Do the modern players compare with the greats of the past?

Where do we rank Bonds, A-Rod and Pujols?

There are lots of ancillary questions? How did Bonds compare with Ruth? Can Pujols catch Gehrig? Is A-Rod Top 10 All-Time?

I would like to ask the house how they rank these 3 players all-time. I realize A-Rod and Pujols are still mid-career (A-Rod somewhat past that point), so it's speculation how gracefully they will decline. On July 27, 2012, A-Rod will be 37 and last January 16, 2012, Pujols turned 32.

Where should we rank A-Rod and Pujols? Is A-Rod still potentially Top 15? Does Pujols still have the potential to go Top 20?

What says the house? I'm trying to rise above ancestor-worship and over-glorifying our rich baseball past. Not an easy assignment!

[Blackout]

Alex Rodriguez you mean?

A-rod is top 10 all time

Pujols is top 25

[Bill Burgess]

Thanks, Patrick. I find those estimates quite reasonable, even if I would tweak the precise rankings.

[fenrir]

Not sure about Rodriguez because of the whole steroid issue, but Pujols is already top ten in my book.

[Blackout]

Thanks, Patrick. I find those estimates quite reasonable, even if I would tweak the precise rankings.

yeah I'm avoiding steroid talk for those rankings btw

[BigRon]

Greatness is a combination of what a player did at/near his best and for how long, and also how much he did in total over his career.

Rodriguez has already had his best days- we can measure that. It's extremely unlikely he'll have any more seasons approaching his best. So, what's left is what he'll do the rest of the way to excite those who count totals. In my opinion, Alex Rodriguez right now is just about equal to Mike Schmidt's total career. I could see him being placed one spot ahead of Schmidt right now, probably not more than that. That makes him somewhere around 12 alltime among position players for me. If he has a strong finish over the next 5 years, which I doubt, he could move up considerably. If he fades as I think he will, he could move up another spot or 2. If he really tanks, he may not move up at all. So, best case (for Rodriguez), number 7 or 8- worst case, number 12, most likely case, number 10 or 11.

Pujols is more difficult to assess. I look at it this way. Where would he be if his career unexpectedly ended today? Right now I see him as the number 3 first baseman - if we don't give Mize war cedit- at least 1 very good season and an okay season behind Foxx. I see Foxx as about number 19-20 among position players. Pujols is somewhere in the 30s for me, probably low 30s. Theoretically he has time to climb very high- maybe into the top 6 or 7. However, to do that, he will need 5 or 6 more strong seasons. Does he have that in him? If Pujols has a somewhat "natural" decline- a couple of more really good seasons, then lesser performance- I think it's entirely possible he'll be a top 12- 15 position player. If he fades significantly beginning now, he probably won't crack my top 20.

I'm completely ignoring anything related to PEDs here- it's all based on what the players did on the field.

[torez77]

I believe Pujols will never surpass Gehrig as the greatest 1Bman, whether he deserves to or not. Like Ruth, Gehrig has been forever immortalized as THE GREATEST at his position. Until someone comes along who puts up numbers we've never seen before, or is more charismatic and endearing than Gehrig, that won't change. Pujols is not that player.

[abolishthedh]

This is tough because of what happened to Jimmy Foxx.

I see Pujols as a very similar hitter, for some reason. This is subjective of course, since highlights of Foxx at different career points is impossible.

A-Rod is more like Frank Robinson as a hitter, and IMHO, I think the statistical margin of A-Rod over Robinson at this point may be attributed to PEDs. As an infielder, a direct comparison is not fair to anyone because too much of A-Rod's career has been split between SS and then 3B. Should he be measured against one or the other? Neither choice is fair to him, but I think Schmidt would have had a defensive edge even if A-Rod had spent his entire career at 3B.

Again, this is subjective because I haven't had time to crunch numbers, and because the comparison to Foxx remains hypothetical. I cannot rank either player at this point and once forced to do so, then I would assume that both players walk away from the game tonight before the ranking.

You're forcing me? OK: Arod is top 25 and Pujols tonight is top 40

[csh19792001]

Until someone comes along who puts up numbers we've never seen before, or is more charismatic and endearing than Gehrig, that won't change. Pujols is not that player.

Gehrig was everything but charismatic. In his personality/persona both on the field and off, I might add....

Lou was everything (both good and bad) that Ruth wasn't, in that sense. Lou's (permanent) endearment to every die hard baseball fan is borne of his absolute greatness, indomitable work ethic, and utter humility. This is a man who was deathly afraid of failure and always downplayed himself. Pujols lost a great deal of respect in how he completely sold himself out the Angels. Although certainly not magnetic, Albert is more charismatic than Gehrig was, but somehow I doubt he'll ever be regarded as nearly as endearing as Lou.....

And he won't be immortal.

[csh19792001]

ARod was forced to admit to, what, 5 years of juicing? How many people here are credulous enough to think he wasn't using since 1996, prior to the MLB testing policy being implemented? Given how exalted Albert's numbers have been, I fully expected him to be either strongly implicated or have tested positive by now. He hasn't been, to my knowledge.

It comes down to the validity/reliability/authenticity of the testing program currently in place. How rigorous and comprehensive is it, within the scope of the steroid/PED realm? The Mitchell Report listed less than 15% of players.

Since the early to mid 80's (possibly early...we don't yet know) it really all comes down not just to a question of yes/no culpability, but to a question of degree, as it does in our legal system.

[csh19792001]

Where do we rank Bonds, A-Rod and Pujols?

A better question than where we rank these guys all time is: "How do we even fairly/validly evaluate the greatness/value of these three, in comparison to one another, and the players of the "Steroid Era?'"

[Bothrops Atrox]

When is it is all said and done? Close to the top 12 or so for A-Rod and mid- teens for Pujols.

[BigRon]

When is it is all said and done? Close to the top 12 or so for A-Rod and mid- teens for Pujols.

Right now? You'd rank Pujols mid-teens alltime right this minute if his career ended today?

[sgb]

Right now, not accounting for PED, but accounting the era, Bonds #2, Rodriguez #19, Pujols #29. Think Alex will move up to about #15 or so. Used to think Pujols would get into the Top Ten, now a bit more confused with where that's heading, I'm thinking about #12 or so. Now accounting for PED's, ??

[Bill Burgess]

I had to drop Barry Bonds down from my #5th ranking to my present #10 due to the steroid discount. I have slotted A-Rod to finish somewhere between #12-15, and Pujols is now in my mid-20's, with the good chance to move up if he finishes well. It's too soon to give him Top 20 if his career ended now. Top 20 for me requires more than a 12-year career and great peak. I give career more priority than peak.