Overrated/Underrated Managers

[1905 Giants]

I'm not an expert in how to rank managers, but who do you guys think are some of the under/over rated in that occupation?

[yanks0714]

Overrated: Connie Mack, John McGraw, Casey Stengel, and Joe Torre.

Underrated: Joe McCarthy, Walter Alston, Sparky Anderson, Billy Southworth, and Al Lopez.

[GiambiJuice]

I think all managers are overrated, but #1 on the list is Joe Torre - and I'm a Yankee fan.

I think Dusty Baker is very overrated too.

[Cap78]

On mlbs prime 9 show, Connie Mack didn't even make the list of best managers...I believe John McGraw was #1

[westsidegrounds]

If you go back & check contemporary sources, TSN, the leading daily papers, the various sports journals, you'll see that the Stengel-era Yankees were usually not picked to win the pennant. Cleveland, with their great pitching! Red Sox, with their great hitting! White Sox, with their great fielding! Those were the teams expert contemporary observers thought would contend. It was Casey brought the Bombers home in first place time after time. Easily the most under reated manager ever.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

how good was he with the Dodgers?

the Braves?

the Mets?


in those 13 non Yankee years he never finished in the first division and finished 5th (of 8) just twice, he finished 6th just twice and 5 times was the second worst team in the league, anticpating the Mets when he was dead last all 4 seasons and had some of the worst won loss records in history

the Yankees in the 50s played in a weak unintegrated league and had a farm team in their own league (the A's) constantly supplying them with top grade talent

Stengel was over rated if anything

If you go back & check contemporary sources, TSN, the leading daily papers, the various sports journals, you'll see that the Stengel-era Yankees were usually not picked to win the pennant. Cleveland, with their great pitching! Red Sox, with their great hitting! White Sox, with their great fielding! Those were the teams expert contemporary observers thought would contend. It was Casey brought the Bombers home in first place time after time. Easily the most under reated manager ever.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

Baker is not a good game manager

He is the type of manager who brings value by managing a roster and giving confidence to players but I would not choose him to manage a must win game in bobby sox

I think all managers are overrated, but #1 on the list is Joe Torre - and I'm a Yankee fan.

I think Dusty Baker is very overrated too.

[Cap78]

If you go back & check contemporary sources, TSN, the leading daily papers, the various sports journals, you'll see that the Stengel-era Yankees were usually not picked to win the pennant. Cleveland, with their great pitching! Red Sox, with their great hitting! White Sox, with their great fielding! Those were the teams expert contemporary observers thought would contend. It was Casey brought the Bombers home in first place time after time. Easily the most under reated manager ever.

With that talent, I question the journalists of the time if anything then

[Joltin' Joe]

On mlbs prime 9 show, Connie Mack didn't even make the list of best managers...I believe John McGraw was #1

Yeah I don't think most people consider him to be a great manager...he is very famous but not really considered great. In fact many condemn him for how he used to sell off his best players.

[Michael Green]

This is the classic barstool question. For what it's worth ....

Except when he managed the Yankees, Stengel had lousy teams--in the majors. He had some success in the minors. As for the Yankees, think about how many of the players were real stars. We can emphasize Joe D. and Mickey, except he got the former at the tail end. Berra, Ford, and Rizzuto? Yes. Some really good players, yes. But we make a mistake if we think of the Yankees of his era as loaded with Hall of Famers. Stengel did a lot of platooning or, as Red Barber said he preferred to call it, "managing in depth." From 74 injuries in the 1949 season to using a LEFTY to polish off the Brooklyn Dodgers and their famously right-handed lineup, I think it's safe to say that Stengel made more of what he had with the Yankees. Does that make him great? Harder to argue.

Stengel once said of Alston that he wins with power, he wins with speed, he wins with pitching, and he wins in a stadium that had room for only two outfielders. All well and good. But bear in mind that the Dodgers went from 1966 to 1974 between pennants, with real stinkers a couple of times, and allegedly Walter O'Malley was close to firing Alston in 1974 when the team was struggling for a bit. Every manager is on the edge because it's easier to fire one than 25.

As for the list, Lindsey Nelson said he heard about a conversation among baseball men where they discussed who they would hire as manager if they had to win a game that their lives depended on. Paul Richards said something like, "One game? I would hire a man I hate: Leo Durocher." Was Durocher a great manager? Three pennants and one world championship in about 25 years, which is less than Alston, yet Durocher is considered the great strategist. Hm.

Really, it depends on the manager, the team, and the situation. Was Billy Martin a great manager? Maybe for a year at a time before he would implode or his team would. Gene Mauch? A critic once said he could take a fifth place team to second and a first place team to fourth faster than anybody else. I put up with 20 years of terrible strategy from Tommy Lasorda, but he was great at the clubhouse and keeping the players loose, which may be worth more wins than when Tony LaRussa would always try to prove he's a genius.

As for Connie Mack, a historical note: he destroyed his teams twice as an owner, not as manager. The first time, after 1914, was after they blew the World Series to the Miracle Braves and the Federal League was coming after them; I think he felt they were getting too big for their britches and maybe he felt he couldn't afford to pay them. The second time was after 1931, when the Depression cost him a lot of money. I don't think he was a great manager, and it's hard to fire an owner or co-owner. But I love this trivial note. In 1950, the Brooklyn Dodgers played the Philadelphia A's in an exhibition game. It was the last year for Mack as manager and the first year for a young Brooklyn broadcaster named Scully. It's baseball, and it's a beautiful thing.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

^ so a good manager can't get a lousy team to even finish 3rd or 4th?

and his record with the yankees is tainted by being a very unintegrated league and with the A's giving him their best players year after year

what happened after stengel left (from 1954 to 1960 his last seven years he won two wc only)

ralph houk won 4 straight pennants and 2 straight world championships

what makes stengel last seven years with the yankees better than houk and his first four years?

stengle seven years, five pennants two wc

houk 4 years 4 pennants 2 wc

the yankees really dived after stengel left

NOT

and sorry his record as a manager with the braves dodgers and mets is not speculation it is in the record books

2 years after Stengel left, the Braves won more games than in any of the 3 seasons under Stengel

[Cap78]

Here's a name...what about buck showalter...he has managed well it seems for every team except Texas...he just wears out his welcome a year too soon

[SHOELESSJOE3]

^ so a good manager can't get a lousy team to even finish 3rd or 4th?

and his record with the yankees is tainted by being a very unintegrated league and with the A's giving him their best players year after year

what happened after stengel left (from 1954 to 1960 his last seven years he won two wc only)

ralph houk won 4 straight pennants and 2 straight world championships

what makes stengel last seven years with the yankees better than houk and his first four years?

stengle seven years, five pennants two wc

houk 4 years 4 pennants 2 wc

the yankees really dived after stengel left

NOT

and sorry his record as a manager with the braves dodgers and mets is not speculation it is in the record books

2 years after Stengel left, the Braves won more games than in any of the 3 seasons under Stengel

How does one team have an edge over the rest of a league slow to integrate............they all play in the same league, how does slow to integrate help just one team in that league.
You list the years 1954-1960, what about the five consecutive World Series under Stengel, 1949-1953.
How did they manage to beat the more integrated NL in 5 consecutive WS.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

read th eentire post post and not nitpick

if stengel was so good, (he won only 2 wc his last 7 years) while houk won the same in the two years immediately succeeding stengel

and the league was a weak unintegrated league with a farm team in the same league supplying the yanks with quality players year after year

those are unchallenged facts

if stengel was so great why did he have 13 second division seasons in 13 years managing non yankee teams

How does one team have an edge over the rest of a league slow to integrate............they all play in the same league, how does slow to integrate help just one team in that league.
You list the years 1954-1960, what about the five consecutive World Series under Stengel

[SHOELESSJOE3]

read th eentire post post and not nitpick

if stengel was so good, (he won only 2 wc his last 7 years) while houk won the same in the two years immediately succeeding stengel

and the league was a weak unintegrated league with a farm team in the same league supplying the yanks with quality players year after year
those are unchallenged facts

if stengel was so great why did he have 13 second division seasons in 13 years managing non yankee teams

I did read the post and not nit picking. I asked why when with the Yanks did you list only his losing seasons 1954-1960, thats legit.

Did I miss something from 1949 to 1953 when the Yanks won 5 consecutive WS, KC the team you keep harping on as a Yank farm team, they were not around in the years 1949-53, or will you now create another Yank AL farm team in those years.

While your at it, get off the slow to integrate advantage you claim the Yanks had, you just repeated it.
Try it one more time, use common sense............in a league that is slow to integrate, how does one team have an advantage over the other 7 teams, that all play in the same league, explain the advantage only one team would have.