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Ted Williams vs Carl Yastrzemski

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  • #16
    Originally posted by chicagowhitesox1173 View Post
    He did put up a nice war from 1963-1970. I didn't add it up but it's gotta be close to a 60 war. He had 3 seasons over 9.0.
    You were close. He has a 56.4 WAR over that stretch.

    From 1971-1978, his was was only 26.2. Quite a contrast, huh..

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
      Reggie Jackson, who is on the Mt Rushmore of batter strikeout chumps, out hit Carl Yastrzemski, 3 time batting champ (and missed a fourth by .0002), in road games .268 to .264

      here are a few Yaz years broken down by home and road performance

      1962 OVERALL .296 19 HR .469 SA
      1962 HOME .342 11 HR .563 SA
      1962 ROAD .252 8 HR .379 SA

      1965 OVERALL .312 20 HR .536 SA
      1965 HOME .331 16 HR .639 SA
      1965 ROAD .289 4 HR .417 SA

      1977 OVERALL .296 28 HR .505 SA
      1977 HOME .351 14 HR .557 SA
      1977 ROAD .239 14 HR .453 SA

      you be the judge of how good Yaz was especially when you take him out of Fenway
      Wow, if Yaz had played for Houston, he would have been a nobody. And if Alexander the Great was in command, at the battle of Staligrad, maybe the Germans win. Oh wait, neither of those things happened. We can only judge Yaz by what he did. He hit well at Fenway. Good for him. and you cherry picked 3 seasons

      Oh and isn't Fenway one of Reggie's road parks? Ouww!

      Plus are you saying Reggie was a bad player??
      This week's Giant

      #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
        Wow, if Yaz had played for Houston, he would have been a nobody. And if Alexander the Great was in command, at the battle of Staligrad, maybe the Germans win. Oh wait, neither of those things happened. We can only judge Yaz by what he did. He hit well at Fenway. Good for him. and you cherry picked 3 seasons

        Oh and isn't Fenway one of Reggie's road parks? Ouww!

        Plus are you saying Reggie was a bad player??
        You can pretty much pick any season, and the home/road difference is pretty big. From the stats it is pretty obvious that Yaz's greatness was a direct result of Fenway Park. A .264 .357 .422 line just isn't a 'great' player no matter what the era.

        The more I look at the stats, the more I think that the Luis Gonzalez comparison is valid. Of course Yaz played longer, and was a little better...but i think if he was in the NL his entire career we might be looking at him in a completely different way.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by willshad View Post
          You can pretty much pick any season, and the home/road difference is pretty big. From the stats it is pretty obvious that Yaz's greatness was a direct result of Fenway Park. A .264 .357 .422 line just isn't a 'great' player no matter what the era.

          The more I look at the stats, the more I think that the Luis Gonzalez comparison is valid. Of course Yaz played longer, and was a little better...but i think if he was in the NL his entire career we might be looking at him in a completely different way.
          According to this nerdy metric called WAR, which I'm sure you reject entirely because it's not perfect, Yaz is MUCH closer to Ted Williams than to Luis Gonzalez.
          My top 10 players:

          1. Babe Ruth
          2. Barry Bonds
          3. Ty Cobb
          4. Ted Williams
          5. Willie Mays
          6. Alex Rodriguez
          7. Hank Aaron
          8. Honus Wagner
          9. Lou Gehrig
          10. Mickey Mantle

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          • #20
            Yaz was truly great from 1967-1970. Other than that, he was good. I also dock players immensely for running up the stats at home. Yaz doesn't might crack the top 50 in my book. Ted Williams is a top 10 all-around player and top 2 hitter.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by willshad View Post
              He managed to get 3419 hits despite a .285 batting average, and playing half his games in Fenway. Ended up with 1844 RBI, but only 5 100 RBI seasons in 23 years, again despite being in Fenway in pretty good lineups.

              Career road OPS: .779

              This is a compiler, with a handful of really good years.

              Take away his 2 or 3 best seasons from his career totals. You end up with Harold Baines..except Baines didnt have the huge home/road split.
              No doubt Yaz made hay at home, Fenway was hitters heaven.
              Amazing the home away splits at Fenway for doubles..........for left handed Bosox players. Don't kid yourself these lefthanded batters were not banging that many balls off the Green Monster. Maybe some off the wall but that tricky right field played a part. Some of these lefty's really padded their slugging percentage picking up the extra base on those doubles.

              Williams, Yaz and Lynn in his Bosox years, off the chart splits in doubles at home.
              How do we know it wasn't all the wall, these lefty's doubles ratio home and away was greater than some of the great Bosox RH batters.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by willshad View Post
                You can pretty much pick any season, and the home/road difference is pretty big. From the stats it is pretty obvious that Yaz's greatness was a direct result of Fenway Park. A .264 .357 .422 line just isn't a 'great' player no matter what the era.
                .

                I don't think you can say a great player is great directly because of where he played. Great player use their home ball parks advantages and no doubt Yaz used Fennway. But who is to say that if he didn't play for the Cubs maybe instead of doubles he is 500-600 home run guy.

                Comment


                • #23
                  or if he played 162 games in Colorado he would have hit 70 home runs and hit .430

                  remember when Bichette hit like 40 home runs and 31 were at home?

                  park illusions are an important factor

                  "taking advantage" of a offensive oriented park is nonsense

                  Yaz slugged .394 career at the Oakland Coliseum, what if he played his career there?

                  Yaz slugged over .500 at one ballpark in his career, yes Fenway park

                  Hank Aaron slugged over .500 at 18 ballparks career

                  Willie Mays hit 28 home runs in 56 career games at Ebbetts Field and slugged .786, what if he played half his career games there

                  it is a benefit that inflates a perceived value

                  that is why all these slugging red sox teams went 86 years without a championship


                  Originally posted by Jroll View Post
                  I don't think you can say a great player is great directly because of where he played. Great player use their home ball parks advantages and no doubt Yaz used Fennway. But who is to say that if he didn't play for the Cubs maybe instead of doubles he is 500-600 home run guy.
                  Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 06-19-2012, 06:40 PM.
                  1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                  2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                  3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    even without Fenway, Yaz was a heck of a hitter:

                    RBI - Yaz had 781 in away games. say he hits that many and no more at home, he still would have 1562 career RBI - good for #41 all time (just ahead of Willie McCovey)

                    HR - this is actually very close, 277 at home and 215 away. Say Fenway offers him no extra help in that regard he still ends up with 430 career HR - that moves him from #35 all time to # 41, no big deal.

                    Hits - 1822 at home and only 1575 away. again, assigning no advantage to playing home games at Fenway, he would end up with 3150 career hits, good for #17 all time (just ahead of Paul Waner)

                    Better than Ted Williams? Hey, a lot of hitters fall into the "not better than Ted Williams" category. Pretty darn good though.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                      or if he played 162 games in Colorado he would have hit 70 home runs and hit .430

                      remember when Bichette hit like 40 home runs and 31 were at home?

                      park illusions are an important factor

                      "taking advantage" of a offensive oriented park is nonsense

                      Yaz slugged .394 career at the Oakland Coliseum, what if he played his career there?

                      Yaz slugged over .500 at one ballpark in his career, yes Fenway park

                      Hank Aaron slugged over .500 at 18 ballparks career

                      Willie Mays hit 28 home runs in 56 career games at Ebbetts Field and slugged .786, what if he played half his career games there

                      it is a benefit that inflates a perceived value

                      Never said park factors were not important but I don't think that a player will be great just because of where he plays. If a guy is truly is a great player he will find a way to be great no matter where his home park is. Dante Bichette had one great year, he never came close to a .600 SLG or had an OPS over .900 again. His home park made him great for one year.

                      If you believe Yaz is actually a great hitter id think that he would find a way to hit at Oak Coliseum.

                      And are you actually using Mays and Aaron to make a point about Yaz? They aren't in the same league

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Jroll View Post
                        Never said park factors were not important but I don't think that a player will be great just because of where he plays. If a guy is truly is a great player he will find a way to be great no matter where his home park is. Dante Bichette had one great year, he never came close to a .600 SLG or had an OPS over .900 again. His home park made him great for one year.

                        If you believe Yaz is actually a great hitter id think that he would find a way to hit at Oak Coliseum.

                        And are you actually using Mays and Aaron to make a point about Yaz? They aren't in the same league
                        This may be true, but often park effects prevent some observers from recognizing greatness (or mediocrity). Jimmy Wynn and Jose Cruz come to mind. They hit very well in the Dome, but hitting very well in the Dome doesn't impress a lot of people.

                        The relation between talent and circumstances isn't always additive. Yaz did much better in Fenway than one could predict just from Fenway's park effects and his road record. When players have big home-away splits, it shows that they're playing where they belong and helping their team win more than could be expected of them on neutral turf. Some players learn how to take advantage of their home field and adapt their hitting accordingly. More power to them. What? are teams supposed to choose players who can't play in their home parks?
                        Last edited by Jackaroo Dave; 06-19-2012, 08:19 PM.
                        Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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                        • #27
                          Due to longevity, I'd say that Yaz belongs in the Hall. His huge 4 year string from 1967-1970 was the icing on the cake. However, I had to think about it. He really wasn't all that great other than those 4 years. But his huge counting numbers cannot be ignored.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            When players have big home-away splits, it shows that they're playing where they belong

                            I respectfully disagree

                            when players have huge home road splits, it shows their home park is an offensive park that inflates their stats

                            this is easy to see by looking at the team stats as well
                            Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 06-19-2012, 09:17 PM.
                            1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                            2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                            3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              let's look at 2 examples

                              the 1977 red Sox who scored 495 runs at home but allowed 407 runs at home or a total of 902 runs
                              but on the road they scored only 364 runs but allowed only 305 runs, for a total of 669 runs
                              both the offense and pitching scored/allowed over 100 more runs at home

                              saying a red sox batter took advantage of fenway due to his unique skills is folly, it is a true park illusion

                              now let's look at the other extreme

                              the 1976 astros scored just 277 runs at home but allowed even less - 264 for a total of 541 runs
                              but on the road the astros scored 348 runs and allowed 393 for a total of 741 runs a 200 run difference

                              the 1977 red sox scored a total of 218 more runs at home than the 1976 astros did
                              but on the road the difference was only 16 runs and 1977 was an expansion year along with having a DH pretty much negates the 16 run difference

                              to say the 1977 red sox were a better offensive team than the 1976 astros is a hard nut to prove

                              they just played in an environment more suited to runs

                              and it is the same for individual players like Yaz
                              Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 06-19-2012, 09:18 PM.
                              1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                              2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                              3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                It is quite possible for a batter to play in an offensive park and do better than expected in that offensive park. It also true that a batter can play in an offensive park and do worse than expected but still have his numbers look like they are good.

                                Comment

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