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Ted Williams vs Carl Yastrzemski

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  • #61
    Yaz aside from this discussion, there are other with monster gaps in home/away splits. I don't see how anyone can downplay a hitter with such hugh gaps in home away stats when ranking them by career stats.

    We do it for pitchers all the time with much more vigor. One look at home and away on the chart I posted (post # 42) for a number of Bosox hitters tells a number of Bosox players feasted in that heavenly hitter's parks.

    Some of the Bosox hitters home/away gaps are astounding, to put it mildly.
    Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 06-21-2012, 01:23 PM.

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    • #62
      you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink

      Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
      Yaz aside from this discussion, there are other with monster gaps in home/away splits. I don't see how anyone can downplay a hitter with such hugh gaps in home away stats when ranking them by career stats.

      We do it for pitchers all the time with much more vigor. One look at home and away on the chart I posted (post # 42) for a number of Bosox hitters tells a number of Bosox players feasted in that heavenly hitter's parks.

      Some of the Bosox hitters home/away gaps are astounding, to put it mildly.
      1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
      2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
      3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
        home .306 .402 .503
        road .264 .357 .422

        the truth hurts
        Or, in other words, .285 .379 .462 over a span of 23 years, including the second dead-ball era. It only hurts when I laugh.

        Roy, you quite properly make the point that ballpark illusions are pervasive yet simple to recognize and deal with. Of course that's what relative stats like Yaz's OPS+ (130) and WAR (90) do. But the same holds for illusions due to the era of play.

        For example, he had one away year quite close to his career away line quoted above: .264/.353/.415. It was 1978, and he had an away OPS+ of 127, 3 points off his lifetime overall. Another year Yaz had an away slash line of .232/.339/.447: The year was 1969 and his corresponding away OPS+ was 138.

        These were nowhere near his best years. When he was in his prime, he had away OPS+ of 178, 198, and 199. He had 10 seasons of 135 or above, 15 of 115 or above.

        (I can't help feeling you are toying with Yaz's sabremetric fanboys by comparing Dante Bichette's season of 1995, when runs averaged 4.85 per game, with Yaz's seasons when runs averaged 3.8. That's very naughty ;-) )

        Overall, Yaz played in an environment that was basically neutral. Baseball Reference's "air" stat is a measure of the extent to which the run environment favors the hitter: 100, neutral; >100 favors offense; <100 favors defense. Yaz's is 99. Pretty much, what Fenway giveth, the 60's taketh away. If you run Yaz through baseball-reference's Neutral Run Environment processor, at the end you get almost exactly the same stats that you start with.

        He does have a black ink/grey ink advantage because of Fenway, but no advantage over anyone playing in a run-neutral environment.

        For the record, here are Yaz's away OPS+ marks. There are a couple of real stinkers in there, and I would never dispute that Yaz stayed too long at the fair. His marks in 79 and 81 (when he was 40 and 42) should never have been made. That brings down his average but doesn't take away his great achievements:

        Code:
        1961-65 68 100 178 139 135 
        1966-70 101 199 198 138 173
        1971-75 118 111 151 142 117
        1976-80 102 115 127 91 142
        1981-83 73 108 116
        (What is interesting is that in many years, especially the later ones, the first/second half split is far greater than the home-road split, the second half always worse.)

        Baseball-Ref doesn't give the career sOPS+, the comparison with the league's home and away splits. It just gives the individual's. Since Yaz's breakdown is 115 (Home) to 86 (Away)with 100 the overall average, i.e. the equivalent of his career OPS+ of 130, I figure his OPS+ to be about 149 at home and 111 on the road, but I wouldn't take my oath on it.

        I don't think Yaz is an easy player to figure out. He had his successes early, and it seemed every year for ages as if his inability to match his early performance was all that was standing between the Red Sox and a pennant. And then there are the splits. He had that 44-home-run-season, but he wasn't really a power guy, more an on-base and doubles guy. He was a wonderful defensive player and a good baserunner. He has 90.1 WAR, but he's 65th in WAR per PA, in Fisk, Gwynn, and Ashburn territory. He had some great years and some really good years that seemed less impressive than they were. And he did have a couple of horrible years. Maybe if Fenway hadn't made his raw numbers look better at the end, he might have gotten out sooner.

        Roger Angell said that Yaz didn't look like he enjoyed playing ball much. He was dinged up and got old early, and he stayed old for a long time. He was a hell of a player, though, and all in all his record means just what it says.
        Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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        • #64
          Great post, Jackaroo.
          My top 10 players:

          1. Babe Ruth
          2. Barry Bonds
          3. Ty Cobb
          4. Ted Williams
          5. Willie Mays
          6. Alex Rodriguez
          7. Hank Aaron
          8. Honus Wagner
          9. Lou Gehrig
          10. Mickey Mantle

          Comment


          • #65
            lots of players played in the second deadball era

            they didnt have a fenway park to bail them out with inflated home stats though (how many drop 81 points in slugging percentage away from their cozy home?)

            just think of those players who had to suffer through the astrodome or dodger stadium or oakland as their home park

            reggie jackson, strikeout king, outhit Yaz, batting champ, in road games

            you can look it up
            Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 06-22-2012, 07:57 AM.
            1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
            2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
            3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
              lots of players played in the second deadball era

              they didnt have a fenway park to bail them out with inflated home stats though (how many drop 81 points in slugging percentage away from their cozy home?)

              just think of those players who had to suffer through the astrodome or dodger stadium or oakland as their home park

              reggie jackson, strikeout king, outhit batting champ Yaz in road games

              you can look it up
              And your opinion on Ted Williams? You know, the other player in this thread?
              Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
              Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
              Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
              Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
              Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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              • #67
                I think Williams has many good point but he is not one of my favorites

                basically a one dimensional player (very good at that one dimension) who was not much of a fielder, base runner or clubhouse help

                and he missed too many games for me in the seasons he actually played which is somewhat counterbalanced by the war years he missed

                I would take Bonds Musial and Rickey H over both of them but then again I would take Collins, Morgan and Jackie over Hornsby for my 2B as well

                while Williams and Hornsby will give you tremendous offense, I prefer players who can also field run the bases and contribute in other ways

                Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                And your opinion on Ted Williams? You know, the other player in this thread?
                Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 06-22-2012, 07:56 AM.
                1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                Comment


                • #68
                  Ah, the great clubhouse leader Rickey Henderson...
                  My top 10 players:

                  1. Babe Ruth
                  2. Barry Bonds
                  3. Ty Cobb
                  4. Ted Williams
                  5. Willie Mays
                  6. Alex Rodriguez
                  7. Hank Aaron
                  8. Honus Wagner
                  9. Lou Gehrig
                  10. Mickey Mantle

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Rickey Henderson - seven first place teams

                    Ted Williams - one first place team and he was such a jerk he didnt even go to the victory party
                    1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                    2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                    3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                      Rickey Henderson - seven first place teams

                      Ted Williams - one first place team and he was such a jerk he didnt even go to the victory party
                      That wouldn't have had anything to do with Henderson having better teammates, would it?
                      My top 10 players:

                      1. Babe Ruth
                      2. Barry Bonds
                      3. Ty Cobb
                      4. Ted Williams
                      5. Willie Mays
                      6. Alex Rodriguez
                      7. Hank Aaron
                      8. Honus Wagner
                      9. Lou Gehrig
                      10. Mickey Mantle

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Well, Rickey was such a "clubhouse leader" that he was playing cards in the clubhouse while the Mets folded. So I guess to be a clubhouse leader one of the requirements is that you have to be in the clubhouse.


                        This whole notion of who is or isn't a leader is foolish. We're outsiders and we have no idea what is going on behind closed doors and we don't know who is doing what and whether or not what they are or are not doing has any effect on the bottom line.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post

                          Ted Williams - one first place team and he was such a jerk he didnt even go to the victory party
                          On the night of the victory party Williams made an unpublicized hospital visit to visit with wounded WWII veterans. I doubt if his teammates held that against him.

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                          • #73
                            1) The victory party, as described in the book "When the Boys Came home, baseball and 1946" was short and not particularly sweet due to Williams not going. He was angry at teammates who challenged him to quit being so stubborn and try to pull the ball into the Williams shift, which caused a second half slump and made him even more surly than usual.

                            2) he could have visited veterans any day or time, missing the party wa s a convenient excuse.
                            1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                            2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                            3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                              That wouldn't have had anything to do with Henderson having better teammates, would it?
                              maybe that s why Stengle, who failed miserably in three other managerial attempts, was able to finally win with the talented and high salaried Yankees and their superior scouting system and high payroll

                              glad you see it that way
                              1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                              2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                              3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                .338/.479/.638. Not bad for a "slump".
                                My top 10 players:

                                1. Babe Ruth
                                2. Barry Bonds
                                3. Ty Cobb
                                4. Ted Williams
                                5. Willie Mays
                                6. Alex Rodriguez
                                7. Hank Aaron
                                8. Honus Wagner
                                9. Lou Gehrig
                                10. Mickey Mantle

                                Comment

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