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  • Ubiquitous
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    1977 was a great year for runs
    1976 was not

    the 1976 Astros on the road scored/allowed more runs than the 1977 Red Sox on the road while at home the numbers were about 400 difference

    you have made my point fo rme

    i dont think i can make it any simpler or easier than post 29
    My point is that to get to the answer is more complicated than you are making it out to be.

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  • Ubiquitous
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post

    to say the 1977 red sox were a better offensive team than the 1976 astros is a hard nut to prove
    Except what the pitchers did doesn't really answer anything about the batters.

    If you take both teams' away numbers and then weight their home run scoring so that it has same amount of games played as their average away opponent does then the Red Sox offense scores 403 runs and the Astros offense scores 373 runs.
    Last edited by Ubiquitous; 06-19-2012, 08:55 PM.

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  • 9RoyHobbsRF
    replied
    1977 was a great year for runs
    1976 was not

    the 1976 Astros on the road scored/allowed more runs than the 1977 Red Sox on the road while at home the numbers were about 400 difference

    you have made my point fo rme

    i dont think i can make it any simpler or easier than post 29

    Leave a comment:


  • Ubiquitous
    replied
    1976 and 1977 are a bit flukish in that era in that 1976 the scoring was low while the scoring was high in 1977 for the NL. HR's took a nosedive in 1976 and jumped out in 1977. In 1978 scoring dropped back to 1976 levels before rising modestly over the next decade.

    The same thing happened in the AL but they also had expansion in 1977.

    So you are comparing one team from the low point of run scoring and using their away numbers which is minus one really bad offensive park to another team from a high point of run scoring and using their away numbers which is minus one really good offensive park.
    Last edited by Ubiquitous; 06-19-2012, 08:43 PM.

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  • Ubiquitous
    replied
    It is quite possible for a batter to play in an offensive park and do better than expected in that offensive park. It also true that a batter can play in an offensive park and do worse than expected but still have his numbers look like they are good.

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  • 9RoyHobbsRF
    replied
    let's look at 2 examples

    the 1977 red Sox who scored 495 runs at home but allowed 407 runs at home or a total of 902 runs
    but on the road they scored only 364 runs but allowed only 305 runs, for a total of 669 runs
    both the offense and pitching scored/allowed over 100 more runs at home

    saying a red sox batter took advantage of fenway due to his unique skills is folly, it is a true park illusion

    now let's look at the other extreme

    the 1976 astros scored just 277 runs at home but allowed even less - 264 for a total of 541 runs
    but on the road the astros scored 348 runs and allowed 393 for a total of 741 runs a 200 run difference

    the 1977 red sox scored a total of 218 more runs at home than the 1976 astros did
    but on the road the difference was only 16 runs and 1977 was an expansion year along with having a DH pretty much negates the 16 run difference

    to say the 1977 red sox were a better offensive team than the 1976 astros is a hard nut to prove

    they just played in an environment more suited to runs

    and it is the same for individual players like Yaz
    Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 06-19-2012, 08:18 PM.

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  • 9RoyHobbsRF
    replied
    When players have big home-away splits, it shows that they're playing where they belong

    I respectfully disagree

    when players have huge home road splits, it shows their home park is an offensive park that inflates their stats

    this is easy to see by looking at the team stats as well
    Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 06-19-2012, 08:17 PM.

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  • pheasant
    replied
    Due to longevity, I'd say that Yaz belongs in the Hall. His huge 4 year string from 1967-1970 was the icing on the cake. However, I had to think about it. He really wasn't all that great other than those 4 years. But his huge counting numbers cannot be ignored.

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  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by Jroll View Post
    Never said park factors were not important but I don't think that a player will be great just because of where he plays. If a guy is truly is a great player he will find a way to be great no matter where his home park is. Dante Bichette had one great year, he never came close to a .600 SLG or had an OPS over .900 again. His home park made him great for one year.

    If you believe Yaz is actually a great hitter id think that he would find a way to hit at Oak Coliseum.

    And are you actually using Mays and Aaron to make a point about Yaz? They aren't in the same league
    This may be true, but often park effects prevent some observers from recognizing greatness (or mediocrity). Jimmy Wynn and Jose Cruz come to mind. They hit very well in the Dome, but hitting very well in the Dome doesn't impress a lot of people.

    The relation between talent and circumstances isn't always additive. Yaz did much better in Fenway than one could predict just from Fenway's park effects and his road record. When players have big home-away splits, it shows that they're playing where they belong and helping their team win more than could be expected of them on neutral turf. Some players learn how to take advantage of their home field and adapt their hitting accordingly. More power to them. What? are teams supposed to choose players who can't play in their home parks?
    Last edited by Jackaroo Dave; 06-19-2012, 07:19 PM.

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  • Jroll
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    or if he played 162 games in Colorado he would have hit 70 home runs and hit .430

    remember when Bichette hit like 40 home runs and 31 were at home?

    park illusions are an important factor

    "taking advantage" of a offensive oriented park is nonsense

    Yaz slugged .394 career at the Oakland Coliseum, what if he played his career there?

    Yaz slugged over .500 at one ballpark in his career, yes Fenway park

    Hank Aaron slugged over .500 at 18 ballparks career

    Willie Mays hit 28 home runs in 56 career games at Ebbetts Field and slugged .786, what if he played half his career games there

    it is a benefit that inflates a perceived value

    Never said park factors were not important but I don't think that a player will be great just because of where he plays. If a guy is truly is a great player he will find a way to be great no matter where his home park is. Dante Bichette had one great year, he never came close to a .600 SLG or had an OPS over .900 again. His home park made him great for one year.

    If you believe Yaz is actually a great hitter id think that he would find a way to hit at Oak Coliseum.

    And are you actually using Mays and Aaron to make a point about Yaz? They aren't in the same league

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  • westsidegrounds
    replied
    even without Fenway, Yaz was a heck of a hitter:

    RBI - Yaz had 781 in away games. say he hits that many and no more at home, he still would have 1562 career RBI - good for #41 all time (just ahead of Willie McCovey)

    HR - this is actually very close, 277 at home and 215 away. Say Fenway offers him no extra help in that regard he still ends up with 430 career HR - that moves him from #35 all time to # 41, no big deal.

    Hits - 1822 at home and only 1575 away. again, assigning no advantage to playing home games at Fenway, he would end up with 3150 career hits, good for #17 all time (just ahead of Paul Waner)

    Better than Ted Williams? Hey, a lot of hitters fall into the "not better than Ted Williams" category. Pretty darn good though.

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  • 9RoyHobbsRF
    replied
    or if he played 162 games in Colorado he would have hit 70 home runs and hit .430

    remember when Bichette hit like 40 home runs and 31 were at home?

    park illusions are an important factor

    "taking advantage" of a offensive oriented park is nonsense

    Yaz slugged .394 career at the Oakland Coliseum, what if he played his career there?

    Yaz slugged over .500 at one ballpark in his career, yes Fenway park

    Hank Aaron slugged over .500 at 18 ballparks career

    Willie Mays hit 28 home runs in 56 career games at Ebbetts Field and slugged .786, what if he played half his career games there

    it is a benefit that inflates a perceived value

    that is why all these slugging red sox teams went 86 years without a championship


    Originally posted by Jroll View Post
    I don't think you can say a great player is great directly because of where he played. Great player use their home ball parks advantages and no doubt Yaz used Fennway. But who is to say that if he didn't play for the Cubs maybe instead of doubles he is 500-600 home run guy.
    Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 06-19-2012, 05:40 PM.

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  • Jroll
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    You can pretty much pick any season, and the home/road difference is pretty big. From the stats it is pretty obvious that Yaz's greatness was a direct result of Fenway Park. A .264 .357 .422 line just isn't a 'great' player no matter what the era.
    .

    I don't think you can say a great player is great directly because of where he played. Great player use their home ball parks advantages and no doubt Yaz used Fennway. But who is to say that if he didn't play for the Cubs maybe instead of doubles he is 500-600 home run guy.

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  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    He managed to get 3419 hits despite a .285 batting average, and playing half his games in Fenway. Ended up with 1844 RBI, but only 5 100 RBI seasons in 23 years, again despite being in Fenway in pretty good lineups.

    Career road OPS: .779

    This is a compiler, with a handful of really good years.

    Take away his 2 or 3 best seasons from his career totals. You end up with Harold Baines..except Baines didnt have the huge home/road split.
    No doubt Yaz made hay at home, Fenway was hitters heaven.
    Amazing the home away splits at Fenway for doubles..........for left handed Bosox players. Don't kid yourself these lefthanded batters were not banging that many balls off the Green Monster. Maybe some off the wall but that tricky right field played a part. Some of these lefty's really padded their slugging percentage picking up the extra base on those doubles.

    Williams, Yaz and Lynn in his Bosox years, off the chart splits in doubles at home.
    How do we know it wasn't all the wall, these lefty's doubles ratio home and away was greater than some of the great Bosox RH batters.

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  • pheasant
    replied
    Yaz was truly great from 1967-1970. Other than that, he was good. I also dock players immensely for running up the stats at home. Yaz doesn't might crack the top 50 in my book. Ted Williams is a top 10 all-around player and top 2 hitter.

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