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Ted Williams vs Carl Yastrzemski

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  • GiambiJuice
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    You can pretty much pick any season, and the home/road difference is pretty big. From the stats it is pretty obvious that Yaz's greatness was a direct result of Fenway Park. A .264 .357 .422 line just isn't a 'great' player no matter what the era.

    The more I look at the stats, the more I think that the Luis Gonzalez comparison is valid. Of course Yaz played longer, and was a little better...but i think if he was in the NL his entire career we might be looking at him in a completely different way.
    According to this nerdy metric called WAR, which I'm sure you reject entirely because it's not perfect, Yaz is MUCH closer to Ted Williams than to Luis Gonzalez.

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  • willshad
    replied
    Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
    Wow, if Yaz had played for Houston, he would have been a nobody. And if Alexander the Great was in command, at the battle of Staligrad, maybe the Germans win. Oh wait, neither of those things happened. We can only judge Yaz by what he did. He hit well at Fenway. Good for him. and you cherry picked 3 seasons

    Oh and isn't Fenway one of Reggie's road parks? Ouww!

    Plus are you saying Reggie was a bad player??
    You can pretty much pick any season, and the home/road difference is pretty big. From the stats it is pretty obvious that Yaz's greatness was a direct result of Fenway Park. A .264 .357 .422 line just isn't a 'great' player no matter what the era.

    The more I look at the stats, the more I think that the Luis Gonzalez comparison is valid. Of course Yaz played longer, and was a little better...but i think if he was in the NL his entire career we might be looking at him in a completely different way.

    Leave a comment:


  • JR Hart
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    Reggie Jackson, who is on the Mt Rushmore of batter strikeout chumps, out hit Carl Yastrzemski, 3 time batting champ (and missed a fourth by .0002), in road games .268 to .264

    here are a few Yaz years broken down by home and road performance

    1962 OVERALL .296 19 HR .469 SA
    1962 HOME .342 11 HR .563 SA
    1962 ROAD .252 8 HR .379 SA

    1965 OVERALL .312 20 HR .536 SA
    1965 HOME .331 16 HR .639 SA
    1965 ROAD .289 4 HR .417 SA

    1977 OVERALL .296 28 HR .505 SA
    1977 HOME .351 14 HR .557 SA
    1977 ROAD .239 14 HR .453 SA

    you be the judge of how good Yaz was especially when you take him out of Fenway
    Wow, if Yaz had played for Houston, he would have been a nobody. And if Alexander the Great was in command, at the battle of Staligrad, maybe the Germans win. Oh wait, neither of those things happened. We can only judge Yaz by what he did. He hit well at Fenway. Good for him. and you cherry picked 3 seasons

    Oh and isn't Fenway one of Reggie's road parks? Ouww!

    Plus are you saying Reggie was a bad player??

    Leave a comment:


  • EnterSandman
    replied
    Originally posted by chicagowhitesox1173 View Post
    He did put up a nice war from 1963-1970. I didn't add it up but it's gotta be close to a 60 war. He had 3 seasons over 9.0.
    You were close. He has a 56.4 WAR over that stretch.

    From 1971-1978, his was was only 26.2. Quite a contrast, huh..

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  • chicagowhitesox1173
    replied
    Originally posted by dl4060 View Post
    Yaz also played in a tough era. His numbers would look much better if he had played at a different time. He lasted a long time as a good but not great player, but if you translate his 1963 to 1970 numbers into a different era they would be pretty awesome. They are impressive enough as it is: Three batting titles, five on base titles, three slugging titles, 4 ops titles, 4 ops+ titles, a homerun title. He was a dominant player in that period, and if it had been in the 80's, let alone the 90's.

    I actually think Yaz is quite underrated. He might have been the best player in the AL from 1963-1970. I have not looked thoroughly into it, but off-hand I can't think of anyone else.

    Yaz is not in Williams class, but that is not much of a criticism.
    He did put up a nice war from 1963-1970. I didn't add it up but it's gotta be close to a 60 war. He had 3 seasons over 9.0.

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  • EnterSandman
    replied
    Obviously Yaz was a great, great ballplayer. I don't think that anyone is denying that. We're all basically saying that Williams/Yaz is a fairly ridiculous comparison to make.

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  • 9RoyHobbsRF
    replied
    Reggie Jackson, who is on the Mt Rushmore of batter strikeout chumps, out hit Carl Yastrzemski, 3 time batting champ (and missed a fourth by .0002), in road games .268 to .264

    here are a few Yaz years broken down by home and road performance

    1962 OVERALL .296 19 HR .469 SA
    1962 HOME .342 11 HR .563 SA
    1962 ROAD .252 8 HR .379 SA

    1965 OVERALL .312 20 HR .536 SA
    1965 HOME .331 16 HR .639 SA
    1965 ROAD .289 4 HR .417 SA

    1977 OVERALL .296 28 HR .505 SA
    1977 HOME .351 14 HR .557 SA
    1977 ROAD .239 14 HR .453 SA

    you be the judge of how good Yaz was especially when you take him out of Fenway
    Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 06-17-2012, 09:35 PM.

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  • dl4060
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    He managed to get 3419 hits despite a .285 batting average, and playing half his games in Fenway. Ended up with 1844 RBI, but only 5 100 RBI seasons in 23 years, again despite being in Fenway in pretty good lineups.

    Career road OPS: .779

    This is a compiler, with a handful of really good years.

    Take away his 2 or 3 best seasons from his career totals. You end up with Harold Baines..except Baines didnt have the huge home/road split.
    Yaz also played in a tough era. His numbers would look much better if he had played at a different time. He lasted a long time as a good but not great player, but if you translate his 1963 to 1970 numbers into a different era they would be pretty awesome. They are impressive enough as it is: Three batting titles, five on base titles, three slugging titles, 4 ops titles, 4 ops+ titles, a homerun title. He was a dominant player in that period, and if it had been in the 80's, let alone the 90's, he would be seen as more of a great.

    I actually think Yaz is quite underrated. He might have been the best player in the AL from 1963-1970. I have not looked thoroughly into it, but off-hand I can't think of anyone else.

    Yaz is not in Williams' class, but that is not much of a criticism.
    Last edited by dl4060; 06-17-2012, 07:57 PM.

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  • BigRon
    replied
    Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    Again, Williams was obviously better, but it can not be overstated how great a player Yaz was at his peak. I don't believe a single offensive player has ever carried his team on his back to the extent that Yastrzemski did for the Red Sox in 1967.

    1968 was the worst year for hitters during the modern era. Yaz famously won a batting title hitting only .301. His .922 OPS In 1968, when adjusted for context, is equivalent to Hank Greenberg's 1.103 OPS in 1940 and slightly better than Greenberg's 1.122 OPS in 1938, when he hit .315/.438/.683 and finished with 58 homers.

    He is one of only 19 position players with multiple 10-WAR seasons ('67 and '68) and one of only 13 players with at least three 9-WAR seasons.

    He may have done some compiling during the latter half of his career, but he was already a deserving HOFer at the end of 1970, when he turned 30 and played his tenth big league season.
    GiambiJuice and leecemark have it right. Williams is one of the 2 greatest hitters in history, and among the top 5-6-7 position players. But, Yastrzemski was an outstanding player-he couldn't hit with Williams, but for the first half of his career he as an excellent offensive performer. Yastrzemski was a better fielder than Williams, and a better baserunner. Balancing his long-term peak years and his career output, Yastrzemski fits comfortably among the top 25 position players. And, for a couple of seasons, his total value was very close to Wiliams' best- it's just that Williams had quite a few more such seasons.

    Leave a comment:


  • dgarza
    replied
    Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    I don't believe a single offensive player has ever carried his team on his back to the extent that Yastrzemski did for the Red Sox in 1967.
    Considering they made the post-season, this might be true. Yaz carried 12.0 of the 1967 team's 36.8 WAR, which is 32.6%.

    There have been other players who have carried their team, but their teams didn't make the post-season.
    Ted Williams for one. His 10.1 WAR in 1941 was 33.1 % of the Red Sox's 30.5 WAR.
    Steve Carlton's 12.1 WAR was a whopping 80.1% of the 1972 Phillie's 15.1 WAR.
    Last edited by dgarza; 06-17-2012, 09:53 AM.

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  • GiambiJuice
    replied
    Again, Williams was obviously better, but it can not be overstated how great a player Yaz was at his peak. I don't believe a single offensive player has ever carried his team on his back to the extent that Yastrzemski did for the Red Sox in 1967.

    1968 was the worst year for hitters during the modern era. Yaz famously won a batting title hitting only .301. His .922 OPS In 1968, when adjusted for context, is equivalent to Hank Greenberg's 1.103 OPS in 1940 and slightly better than Greenberg's 1.122 OPS in 1938, when he hit .315/.438/.683 and finished with 58 homers.

    He is one of only 19 position players with multiple 10-WAR seasons ('67 and '68) and one of only 13 players with at least three 9-WAR seasons.

    He may have done some compiling during the latter half of his career, but he was already a deserving HOFer at the end of 1970, when he turned 30 and played his tenth big league season.
    Last edited by GiambiJuice; 06-17-2012, 09:14 AM.

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  • EnterSandman
    replied
    It's obviously Williams.

    .344/.482/.634/190 OPS+ for Williams

    .285/.379/.462/130 OPS+ for Yaz

    Even if comparing raw statistics across eras isn't 100% reliable, you can see from a mile away that Williams was the much better hitter. He almost had twice Yaz's WAR in less ABs! Yaz's SLG (albeit in a low offensive league for a lot of his career) was lower than Williams' OBP.

    Like leecemark said, there aren't really many hitters comparable to Williams. Ruth, Bonds, Gehrig and maybe Hornsby and Mantle if you're comparing hitters.

    Leave a comment:


  • leecemark
    replied
    --Well that .285 average (and all Yaz other road stats) look alot more impressive put into context. Most of Yaz career played out in historically low offensive environments. When you can lead the league in BA, as Yaz did in 1968, then a career .285 looks pretty impressive. Of course Yaz and Williams is a ridiculous comparison, but you can count on one hand the number of hitters who can be reasonably compared to Williams.

    Leave a comment:


  • willshad
    replied
    Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
    Come on now, Yaz is far from a compiler. He's also a far cry from Gonzalez. Yaz was a major all-star for some time That said Williams is much more elite. Yaz is not is his class.
    He managed to get 3419 hits despite a .285 batting average, and playing half his games in Fenway. Ended up with 1844 RBI, but only 5 100 RBI seasons in 23 years, again despite being in Fenway in pretty good lineups.

    Career road OPS: .779

    This is a compiler, with a handful of really good years.

    Take away his 2 or 3 best seasons from his career totals. You end up with Harold Baines..except Baines didnt have the huge home/road split.
    Last edited by willshad; 06-16-2012, 11:40 PM.

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  • JR Hart
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    Williams is an inner circle hall of fame type of guy, Yaz was more of a compiler with a good peak. He's closer to guys like Dave Parker and Luis Gonzalez than he is to Ted Wiliams.
    Come on now, Yaz is far from a compiler. He's also a far cry from Gonzalez. Yaz was a major all-star for some time That said Williams is much more elite. Yaz is not is his class.

    Leave a comment:

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