Ted Williams vs Carl Yastrzemski

[GiambiJuice]

Fun fact: Ted and Yaz are the only AL players of the Live Ball era with three batting titles and three OPS titles.

[dl4060]

To bring the discussion back to Yaz: In 1977, the Red Sox home-away split in OPS was 115/86 (measured against their own average of 100, not against the league). But for Yaz, the home-away split was 123/76 (again, measured against his own average of 100).

Compared to the league, Yaz has a 115 OPS for away games (i.e. 15% better than the average player playing away) and a 161 home OPS (i.e. 61% better than the average player at home).

So from three perspectives, comparing Yaz with his teammates, comparing him with the league, and comparing him with himself, it's clear that Fenway per se is not the whole story. Yaz was smart enough and skillful enough to exploit his home park at a truly outstanding rate. Lifetime, his personal home-road split was 115/86 (again, vs his own average of 100).

This is really unusual. Ott, Wynn, Ruth, and Teddy F. Ballgame had splits of around 104-6/96-4. Interestingly, another doubles champ, Tris Speaker, has a 114/86 split (from 1918-1930). Jim Rice's splits were also the same.

Success on the home field at this level isn't something that just happens if you just show up with a bat and glove and let the park effects carry you along.

In 1977, the Red Sox scored 495 at home, 364 on the road for a 1.35:1 ratio. Using crude runs created (TB * OBA) gives Yaz 66 runs created at home and 40 on the road, for a 1.65:1 ratio. So in 77 Yaz did better at home than the typical Fenway slugger by 1.65 to 1.35, or +22%.

I get a better sense of Yaz's accomplishments from comparing Yaz's own splits with those of his mates and the league than I do from comparing Houston to Boston in two different years. It is a huge difference, but not as huge as Yaz's.

He was 37, had a WAR of 4.1, and it was his last really good season.

This is exactly the sort of info I was talking about. He seemed to take advantage of Fenway, more so than others.

Like I said before, Wade Boggs had big Fenway splits. Then, when he went to the Yanks, his splits were quite big. He seemed to adapt to Yankee Stadium.

[TonyK]

Having seen both of them play I would say Ted was the better ballplayer. I wonder if he might have won a World Series or two with the same teammates that Yaz had?

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I see your point, Willshad, but I think you may be generalizing across viewpoints. I lauded Yaz and pointed out that Rice shared his home/away OPS+ splits, but I have never considered Rice a fraud thereby. I feel that his strength in triple crown categories does not accurately indicate his ability to help his teams win, but that's a different story.

Yaz was great because he took advantage of Fenway AND

had a career OPS+ of 130 for 14000 plate appearances
ranks 25th in career WAR for position players
carried the Red Sox on his back to the pennant in 67
won three batting championships, five on-base titles, three slugging titles, seven gold gloves
Four adjusted OPS+ titles, three offensive WAR titles, five times in the top three. . .

I think you can see where this is going. Aside from the home/away split, he and Jim Rice don't have that much in common.

I absolutely agree, however, that anyone who looks at Yaz's home OPS+ as an accomplishment, not a pile of filth that contaminates his career, should grant Jim Rice the same courtesy.

I don't see it that way but I don't get some downplaying the fact that he made hay at home, hugh gap home away.
Anyone wanting to give him credit for taking advantage of that home park, not a problem, only saying his stats were padded by that home park.
Funny when it's Hornsby we keep hearing about some of his home parks, why is Yaz looked upon differently
All one has to do is look at the chart I posted, post #42, some Bosox hitters home and away, the park was made for hitting.
Not a bad thing but a fact. The home/away gaps are hugh.

[Jackaroo Dave]

I just don't like the double standard that I sense sometimes. Some players are lauded for their superior home stats, because they 'took advantage of their home park', while others are called frauds. If Yaz was great because he took advantage of Fenway, then Jim Rice was also great, because his home/road splits are similar.

I see your point, Willshad, but I think you may be generalizing across viewpoints. I lauded Yaz and pointed out that Rice shared his home/away OPS+ splits, but I have never considered Rice a fraud thereby. I feel that his strength in triple crown categories does not accurately indicate his ability to help his teams win, but that's a different story.

Yaz was great because he took advantage of Fenway AND

had a career OPS+ of 130 for 14000 plate appearances
ranks 25th in career WAR for position players
carried the Red Sox on his back to the pennant in 67
won three batting championships, five on-base titles, three slugging titles, seven gold gloves
Four adjusted OPS+ titles, three offensive WAR titles, five times in the top three. . .

I think you can see where this is going. Aside from the home/away split, he and Jim Rice don't have that much in common.

I absolutely agree, however, that anyone who looks at Yaz's home OPS+ as an accomplishment, not a pile of filth that contaminates his career, should grant Jim Rice the same courtesy.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

when have I rated Pedro Martinez

please include the forum, the thread, the post the date

if I have, it escapes me

Koufax and the 60s and Dodger Stadium - ahh that explains everything, actually the myth that Koufax solely benfitted from Dodger Stadium was easily debunked in a biography about him, surely you read it.

and of course, his previous 4 years to 1962 he pitched in probably the worst park for a LH in ml history with a 250 pop to LF being a home run or easy double off the screen, despite this, Koufax pitched a pennant altering game in 1959 striking out a ML record 18 Giants, who were in first place at the time and in 1961 his road ERA was lower than the league leaders ERA for the season and he set a nl record for K's, he set a world series record striking out 15 yankees at yankee stadium and shut out the twins in game 7 in minnesota in 1965

how much was Dodger Stadium a factor in those accomplishments?

You can you please explain your double standard when it comes to Red Sox hitters and Dodgers pitchers? In one of the recent pitcher threads you speak about Koufax, but never does the fact that the 60's Dodgers stadium being one of the best pitching parks ever come out. Never does the fact that Fenway is a hitters park seem to help with the case of Pedro Martinez. Surely you would think with how hung up you are on park factors these would play a more significant role in the way you look at Pedro and Koufax.

and seriously, no matter how you slice it, Ted is better than every other LF except for roided Barry. Rickey? Cmon man. In a pretty significant sample size, 523 PA, Henderson's ops was .780 at Fenway, as opposed to .820 lifetime. I guess he's lucky he didn't have to hit in Fenway for 1/2 his games.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

1) did williams attend the celebration
NO and that says a lot about him, the made up after the fact story about going to a hospital was just that
think Winfield and the made up stories to try to explain his 0 or 1 for whatever world series

2) was Williams in good spirits at that time
no he was frustrated with the williams shift and threw tantrums and other things as his personal stats were affected
enough said

3) Williams pre-determined he was not going to the celebration
what kind of all for one one for all teammate would do that
only self absorbed self conflicted self centered players ar elike that

I am comfortable with my assessment about Williams and his clubhouse demeaner and antics

you want him you can have him

throw Cobb and Hornsby in the same clubhouse and you will have three guys worse that Milton Bradley, John Rocker and Albert Belle in your clubhouse

good luck

I will take others who might not be as high rated with convulted formulations but were still pretty damn good and did not have the baggage

and I will not go for players who have tilted stats that are strictly due to park illusions

[9RoyHobbsRF]

I did not say who was better

'I said which one I prefer

Teddy was a better player than Rickey however you slice it. So what if he was a jerk?

So was Rickey.

[Ubiquitous]

all below taken from pg 202

"While still in the clubhouse, Williams had told someone that if they should clinch it today, he wouldn't be coming to any victory party tonight. He had other things to do, he said.

"He eventually did get the players, the owner, and the champagne all together in a banquet room at the Statler for what turned out to be a brief and oddly subduded celebration. All except Williams.

The official celebration, Keane said, wasn't a pretty sight for a team that had just won the pennant.

From the writers' point of view, the only story of the event was that Williams hadn;t gone to it., and Dowd tried to put the best face on this he could by telling reporters Williams had gone to the local hospital to visit a dying vet. The Globe ran the story the next day, though writer Hy Hurwitz investigated the story and found it wasn't so.

what part about B R I E F and OD D L Y S U B D U E D and/or NOT A PRETTY SIGHT do you not get?

Again, nowhere in the book does the author make the claim nor have the author quoting a player stating that the celebration was the way you think it was because Williams wasn't there. Page 201's reference wasn't about the celebration and if it ever was spoken was spoken during the pennant race and not after the Red Sox clinched the pennant.

The celebration could have been subdued for a variety of reasons, if it was subdued at all. For starters they got the news hours later and weren't all brought back together after for awhile as well. That tends to put a damper on things.

You'll also notice that Keane, a reporter-a outsider, said the official celebration wasn't a pretty sight. Two things about that. One, reporters weren't allowed in. No reporters saw what happened within the "official" celebration and two, why does the "official" celebration matter? Were there no other celebrations? Not likely as the author already mentioned that after the game the players dispersed and did their own thing.

[Captain Cold Nose]

It's getting a little bit too much about the posters, folks. Let's keep the discussion about the principle players involved. Thanks.

[GiambiJuice]

You can you please explain your double standard when it comes to Red Sox hitters and Dodgers pitchers? In one of the recent pitcher threads you speak about Koufax, but never does the fact that the 60's Dodgers stadium being one of the best pitching parks ever come out. Never does the fact that Fenway is a hitters park seem to help with the case of Pedro Martinez. Surely you would think with how hung up you are on park factors these would play a more significant role in the way you look at Pedro and Koufax.

and seriously, no matter how you slice it, Ted is better than every other LF except for roided Barry. Rickey? Cmon man. In a pretty significant sample size, 523 PA, Henderson's ops was .780 at Fenway, as opposed to .820 lifetime. I guess he's lucky he didn't have to hit in Fenway for 1/2 his games.

Don't expect any consistency from him. Some people argue for the sake of argument.

[Seels]

You can you please explain your double standard when it comes to Red Sox hitters and Dodgers pitchers? In one of the recent pitcher threads you speak about Koufax, but never does the fact that the 60's Dodgers stadium being one of the best pitching parks ever come out. Never does the fact that Fenway is a hitters park seem to help with the case of Pedro Martinez. Surely you would think with how hung up you are on park factors these would play a more significant role in the way you look at Pedro and Koufax.

and seriously, no matter how you slice it, Ted is better than every other LF except for roided Barry. Rickey? Cmon man. In a pretty significant sample size, 523 PA, Henderson's ops was .780 at Fenway, as opposed to .820 lifetime. I guess he's lucky he didn't have to hit in Fenway for 1/2 his games.

[GiambiJuice]

Teddy was a better player than Rickey however you slice it. So what if he was a jerk?

So was Rickey.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

it would be laudable if a player UNIQUELY took advantge of his home park

when all or most all players do the same thing, it is NOT taking advantage, it is a park illusion that falsely inflates their worth and value

I just don't like the double standard that I sense sometimes. Some players are lauded for their superior home stats, because they 'took advantage of their home park', while others are called frauds. If Yaz was great because he took advantage of Fenway, then Jim Rice was also great, because his home/road splits are similar.

[willshad]

I just don't like the double standard that I sense sometimes. Some players are lauded for their superior home stats, because they 'took advantage of their home park', while others are called frauds. If Yaz was great because he took advantage of Fenway, then Jim Rice was also great, because his home/road splits are similar.