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McCovey/Pujols/Thomas/Bagwell/Votto/Hamilton in the 1920's-30's?

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  • bluesky5
    replied
    Originally posted by chicagowhitesox1173 View Post
    Hamilton would probably fit right in back then. He wouldn't be doing drugs. As far as I know they really didn't have street drugs.
    Josh Gibson found them.

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  • HitchedtoaSpark
    replied
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    I don't buy that Gehrig and Foxx were VERY fast. If Foxx and Gehrig were VERY fast why didn't they play the outfield? When John McGraw first saw Gehrig he wasn't that impressed of Gehrig's defensive skills.
    Gehrig had better than average footspeed. (He favorite off-season pastime was speed skating.) He was quite clumsy when he first arrived in the majors, though, which is probably what relegated him to first base.

    Foxx was real burner. He is recorded as posting a personal best of 8.6 seconds in the 80-yard dash at the age of 14. A year later, he was clocked at 10.6 secs. in the 100-yard and 23 secs. in the 220-yard. (At an undetermined date, he is alleged to have been clocked at 10 seconds flat in the 100-yard.) Bill Werber, often claimed as the fastest ballplayer in his day (he once stole seven bases in a single minor league game), tells the story of how he once lined up to race against other baseball speedsters of his day, such as Ben Chapman, Jake Powell, and Meryl Hoag, only to have Foxx beat them all.

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  • brett
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    That was also a pretty extreme outlier season for him. Gehrig's OPS+ is about 42 points higher than Mccovey's for his career. He is about as much a better hitter than Mccovey as Mccovey is better than a league average hitter. No amount of 'league quality' can bring Mccovey up to Gehrig's level. If you really believe that, then you must also believe that at least 30 or 40 other hitters since then are also as good as Gehrig. I honestly don't believe there has been a single one at his level, steroids or not.


    McCovey also got to platoon significantly which raised his rates, though not from '68-'70. I would not say '69 is an extreme outlier when he went 174, 209, 182 over three consecutive full seasons and had 4 more years over 160.

    The best estimate based on actual number of black players added and the average level of production is that the simple act of full integration would cut OPS+ scores by 4 or 5 percent, so Mccovey's 147 would be about 6-7 points higher if we removed all of the players who would have been banned, but he also got to play through expansion periods so 6-7 points is the maximum boost to about 154. If the average player produced the same relative isolated power and walks during Gehrig's time as they did after full integration, Gehrig's OPS+ would have been cut by about 15-16 points to 163 or 164. I think this is a little too much of a deduction because players in Gehrig's time produced more of their value from batting average anyway, so about half of this, or 7-8 points may be right, and its in the ballpark of the 6-7 point integration estimate. Gehrig 172 to McCovey 147 or Gehrig 179 to McCovey 154 sounds about right on equal settings, but 179 to 147 is not really twice as much better than the league anyway. Its only 168% as much better.

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  • brett
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    I'm pretty sure Foxx's home runs traveled further then those of Thomas.
    Thomas was known for his right-centerfield power, but they weren't line drives. Your distances may go down if you hit a lot of your home runs to the opposite field.

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  • brett
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    You can be fast, and still not be a good outfielder...Tim Raines, for example. You can clearly see in videos that Gehrig had well above average speed. He had 10 triples or more 9 times in his career, including one season with 20. Foxx had foot races with his teammates and always came out in front. These guys were not just ballplayers, they were great all around athletes....maybe not in Mantle's class, but not far off either. You have to remember. first base wasn't always the place where you stuck your worst, least mobile fielder.


    YS was the greatest triple producing ballpark ever compared to the league. I do remember reading that Foxx ran track at some point and maybe was 10.6 in 100 yards.

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  • willshad
    replied
    Originally posted by brett View Post
    Foxx was known for line drives, like some into the upper deck that blew up seats.
    I'm pretty sure Foxx's home runs traveled further then those of Thomas.

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  • willshad
    replied
    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
    I don't buy that Gehrig and Foxx were VERY fast. If Foxx and Gehrig were VERY fast why didn't they play the outfield? When John McGraw first saw Gehrig he wasn't that impressed of Gehrig's defensive skills.
    You can be fast, and still not be a good outfielder...Tim Raines, for example. You can clearly see in videos that Gehrig had well above average speed. He had 10 triples or more 9 times in his career, including one season with 20. Foxx had foot races with his teammates and always came out in front. These guys were not just ballplayers, they were great all around athletes....maybe not in Mantle's class, but not far off either. You have to remember. first base wasn't always the place where you stuck your worst, least mobile fielder.
    Last edited by willshad; 06-30-2012, 08:28 PM.

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  • willshad
    replied
    Originally posted by fenrir View Post
    If you believe the quality of play has improved, one could certainly argue that McCovey's 1969 season is just as good if not better than anything Gehrig ever did. The dude had a 209 OPS+, which I believe is higher than any 1B ever besides Gehrig and a juiced up Mcgwire. He also had 45 intentional walks, which was the single season record up until Bonds silly seasons.
    That was also a pretty extreme outlier season for him. Gehrig's OPS+ is about 42 points higher than Mccovey's for his career. He is about as much a better hitter than Mccovey as Mccovey is better than a league average hitter. No amount of 'league quality' can bring Mccovey up to Gehrig's level. If you really believe that, then you must also believe that at least 30 or 40 other hitters since then are also as good as Gehrig. I honestly don't believe there has been a single one at his level, steroids or not.
    Last edited by willshad; 06-30-2012, 08:25 PM.

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  • brett
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    I don;t think Thomas matches Foxx's home run totals. Thomas was more of a line drive hitter whose home runs were by 'accident', and Foxx was a pure power guy. I don't see Thomas matching Lou's home run totals either. I think in the huge stadiums of the 20s and 30s his batting average goes up,but his home runs go down. I picture him as a Hornsby type of hitter, but not quite as good. A lot of Hornsb'y triples would be doubles for Thomas, and a lot of his doubles would be singles.
    Foxx was known for line drives, like some into the upper deck that blew up seats.

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  • Honus Wagner Rules
    replied
    I don't buy that Gehrig and Foxx were VERY fast. If Foxx and Gehrig were VERY fast why didn't they play the outfield? When John McGraw first saw Gehrig he wasn't that impressed of Gehrig's defensive skills.

    Leave a comment:


  • fenrir
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    You put Mccovey in the same class as Gehrig? Really?
    If you believe the quality of play has improved, one could certainly argue that McCovey's 1969 season is just as good if not better than anything Gehrig ever did. The dude had a 209 OPS+, which I believe is higher than any 1B ever besides Gehrig and a juiced up Mcgwire. He also had 45 intentional walks, which was the single season record up until Bonds silly seasons.

    Leave a comment:


  • willshad
    replied
    Originally posted by leecemark View Post
    --I think these comparison's may understate how much tougher the game has become to dominant over time. Willie McCovey's closest comp from this era is probably Gehrig. He probably wouldn't have hit for as consistently high averages, but he probably hits for a little more power. Pujols might match Hornsby for average and Foxx for power. Thomas is a tougher comp for stars of the 20s and 30s. If he kept the same approach - not swinging at anything out of the strike zone - then there really wasn't a great hitter of that style before Teddy Williams. So he would have been Williams before Williams in the 20s and 30s.
    You put Mccovey in the same class as Gehrig? Really? You think Pujols would hit 50+ home runs and bat over .400? Really? You must think that all the top 30 players of all time have played in the last 40 years.

    I think that speed played a bigger part in the game back then, even after the dead ball era. Guys like Gehrig and Foxx and Hornsby were VERY fast, much faster than the sluggers of today. Don't let the stolen base totals fool you. They got many infield singles, more doubles and triples and even inside the park homers. Today's slugger would find a lot of his home runs would be long flyouts, and what were doubles and triples for the old timers would be singles and doubles for Thomas, Pujols, etc. The power/speed guys would do very well..Bonds, Bagwell, and Henderson. The concept of the one dimensional slugger who couldn't hit for average, and ran station to station did not develop until much later on.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRumpSojr1E

    Check out Gehrig running to first at the 1:43 mark.
    Last edited by willshad; 06-30-2012, 02:42 PM.

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  • willshad
    replied
    Originally posted by leecemark View Post
    --I think these comparison's may understate how much tougher the game has become to dominant over time. Willie McCovey's closest comp from this era is probably Gehrig. He probably wouldn't have hit for as consistently high averages, but he probably hits for a little more power. Pujols might match Hornsby for average and Foxx for power. Thomas is a tougher comp for stars of the 20s and 30s. If he kept the same approach - not swinging at anything out of the strike zone - then there really wasn't a great hitter of that style before Teddy Williams. So he would have been Williams before Williams in the 20s and 30s.
    McCovey would be closer to Greenberg I think. A few dominant years, lots of home run power, good but not great batting average. A bunch of injury seasons in there as well. Gehrig was MUCH more durable than Mccovey.

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  • leecemark
    replied
    --I think these comparison's may understate how much tougher the game has become to dominant over time. Willie McCovey's closest comp from this era is probably Gehrig. He probably wouldn't have hit for as consistently high averages, but he probably hits for a little more power. Pujols might match Hornsby for average and Foxx for power. Thomas is a tougher comp for stars of the 20s and 30s. If he kept the same approach - not swinging at anything out of the strike zone - then there really wasn't a great hitter of that style before Teddy Williams. So he would have been Williams before Williams in the 20s and 30s.

    Leave a comment:


  • willshad
    replied
    Bonds=Ruth/Gehrig
    Bagwell=Greenberg
    Manny=Foxx
    Pujols=Ott
    Piazza=Mize
    Gwynn=Waner
    Thomas=Hornsby
    Votto=Heilmann
    Vlad=Al Simmons
    Walker=Klein
    Last edited by willshad; 06-30-2012, 01:58 PM.

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