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  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Originally posted by Dude Paskert View Post
    Dorothy was putting a lot of pressure on Joe to join the military because she thought it would be bad for her career to be married to a coward who wouldn't serve. Funny how Joe was basically used by both of his wives to further their careers, I guess not so successfully by Dorothy...he got back at them them by being a horrible husband (and father).
    Of course, many fans and public figures were also very negative about ballplayers continuing their careers while ordinary Joes went off and got killed, which probably wasn't doing much for Joe's concentration. Joe's #1 concern with going into the service may well have been how much salary he was going to lose by doing so, not a shock if you're familiar with his personality.



    I'm sure the public outcry would have been incredible if DiMaggio's parents had received special treatment and word got out.

    Of all the mega superstar players, I wonder if DiMaggio had the oddest personality. He was known mostly for being silent, very demanding, and holding grudges. Joe supposedly drove from SF to NYC with Tony Lazzeri and Frankie Crosetti without saying one word. Once you did something to offend Joe, it was almost impossible to get back in his good graces...Toots Shor treated him like a god for years and then was dropped out of Joe's life because hey made a drunken comment that Joe took to be insulting to Marilyn. Years later, a crippled Toots was desperate to talk to Joe one last time at an old timer's game at Yankee and tottered over on his crutches...DiMaggio slipped out of the clubhouse without a word. Joe chewed out a young lady in an airport in about the most profane way possible (even called her the C word) because she worked for a memorabilia company he didn't like and dared to approach him. He more or less ignored his only child for most of his life and the poor guy became a drifter who ODed not long after his pop died. Joe was also an expert tightwad who coveted money like few others and stored huge piles of cash all around the world.
    The only really prominent ballplayer I can think of who rivals Joe for being strange is Steve Carlton. Cobb was cranky and sensitive, but he would talk to people...Williams acted out as a youngster and wasn't much of a husband or father, but mellowed into a long term relationship with a good woman in his old age and was always very generous (think Jimmy Fund). Hornsby, Bonds, and Clemens were big jerks, but that's not so odd.

    Tremendous ballplayer, basically did everything EXTREMELY well except draw walks. But he knew the strike zone and almost never Ked, plus your OBP is still going to be pretty good if you hit .381.

    BTW - 1937.
    Not so unusual for Joe not to speak much with two established Yankees, being a young ball player on the way up. He was always the quite type and I would think even more so around the two Yankees, being a young ballplayer.
    There are many celebrated people who do not get along with their daughter/son father/mother, you choose the word ignored, you don't know the whole story. Can't recall their names at this time but a few fathers and son ballplayer who don't see eye to eye.

    Is that a big problem, being tight with the buck. Myself in my circle of friends some cheapskates and I let them know it, but they're not bad people.
    As for storing money all over the world, whats the source and proof and if true............whats the problem. Would you feel better if he stockpiled bucks in the USA.
    You know Dude, Joe was not mr wonderful but it's obvious from start to finish your on a rant to paint him black.

    Leave a comment:


  • Honus Wagner Rules
    replied
    Originally posted by Dude Paskert View Post
    Dorothy was putting a lot of pressure on Joe to join the military because she thought it would be bad for her career to be married to a coward who wouldn't serve. Funny how Joe was basically used by both of his wives to further their careers, I guess not so successfully by Dorothy...he got back at them them by being a horrible husband (and father).
    Of course, many fans and public figures were also very negative about ballplayers continuing their careers while ordinary Joes went off and got killed, which probably wasn't doing much for Joe's concentration. Joe's #1 concern with going into the service may well have been how much salary he was going to lose by doing so, not a shock if you're familiar with his personality.



    I'm sure the public outcry would have been incredible if DiMaggio's parents had received special treatment and word got out.

    Of all the mega superstar players, I wonder if DiMaggio had the oddest personality. He was known mostly for being silent, very demanding, and holding grudges. Joe supposedly drove from SF to NYC with Tony Lazzeri and Frankie Crosetti without saying one word. Once you did something to offend Joe, it was almost impossible to get back in his good graces...Toots Shor treated him like a god for years and then was dropped out of Joe's life because hey made a drunken comment that Joe took to be insulting to Marilyn. Years later, a crippled Toots was desperate to talk to Joe one last time at an old timer's game at Yankee and tottered over on his crutches...DiMaggio slipped out of the clubhouse without a word. Joe chewed out a young lady in an airport in about the most profane way possible (even called her the C word) because she worked for a memorabilia company he didn't like and dared to approach him. He more or less ignored his only child for most of his life and the poor guy became a drifter who ODed not long after his pop died. Joe was also an expert tightwad who coveted money like few others and stored huge piles of cash all around the world.
    The only really prominent ballplayer I can think of who rivals Joe for being strange is Steve Carlton. Cobb was cranky and sensitive, but he would talk to people...Williams acted out as a youngster and wasn't much of a husband or father, but mellowed into a long term relationship with a good woman in his old age and was always very generous (think Jimmy Fund). Hornsby, Bonds, and Clemens were big jerks, but that's not so odd.

    Tremendous ballplayer, basically did everything EXTREMELY well except draw walks. But he knew the strike zone and almost never Ked, plus your OBP is still going to be pretty good if you hit .381.

    BTW - 1937.
    Can you imagine if a ballplayer acted this way today? He'd be extremely disliked by most people, especially with Facebook, Twitter and all the other social media we have today. If that incident with the young lady had been captured on video, it would be on Youtube in about 5 minutes.

    Leave a comment:


  • EdTarbusz
    replied
    Originally posted by Dude Paskert View Post
    Of course, many fans and public figures were also very negative about ballplayers continuing their careers while ordinary Joes went off and got killed, which probably wasn't doing much for Joe's concentration. Joe's #1 concern with going into the service may well have been how much salary he was going to lose by doing so, not a shock if you're familiar with his personality.



    .
    I don't think there was much public outcry about athletes playing ball in 1942. US casualty lists were pretty small that season. The only player who was really getting any heat about it was Ted Williams, until he enlisted in the Navy. I don't think Americans really began criticizing athletes who stayed behind until the DDay Invasion in 1944. This is when US casualties really began to get high. By early 1945 there was a movement in the Senate to shut baseball down for the duration.

    Something else that I think may have impacted DiMaggio's 1942 season (or really the first half-he had a very good season after the All Star Break) was that he and his wife had an infant at home. This probably added to his deteriorating marriage.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dude Paskert
    replied
    Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    It was much more than the war. Marital problems, split with wife.

    Also and one of the biggest reasons. His Italian parents were required to carry ID, considered "potential enemy agents.".
    One of his fathers fishing vessels was confiscated. His fathers home and boats were searched for flashlights and any type of radio transmitters which the government thought could be used to send messages to enemy ships. He was not allowed to have flashlights on his boats and was restricted, limited to fishing a short distance from shore.

    Joe's dad was also limited as to how far he could travel from home, I believe 5 miles. This meant he could not even travel to Joe's restaraunt.
    Joe's 1942 season not a mystery, he had lots of thing to think about, even when on the field.
    Dorothy was putting a lot of pressure on Joe to join the military because she thought it would be bad for her career to be married to a coward who wouldn't serve. Funny how Joe was basically used by both of his wives to further their careers, I guess not so successfully by Dorothy...he got back at them them by being a horrible husband (and father).
    Of course, many fans and public figures were also very negative about ballplayers continuing their careers while ordinary Joes went off and got killed, which probably wasn't doing much for Joe's concentration. Joe's #1 concern with going into the service may well have been how much salary he was going to lose by doing so, not a shock if you're familiar with his personality.

    Originally posted by chicagowhitesox1173 View Post
    Was his father ever detained even for just a few days? I always found that odd that they would treat a American hero like Dimaggio's parents like that.
    I'm sure the public outcry would have been incredible if DiMaggio's parents had received special treatment and word got out.

    Of all the mega superstar players, I wonder if DiMaggio had the oddest personality. He was known mostly for being silent, very demanding, and holding grudges. Joe supposedly drove from SF to NYC with Tony Lazzeri and Frankie Crosetti without saying one word. Once you did something to offend Joe, it was almost impossible to get back in his good graces...Toots Shor treated him like a god for years and then was dropped out of Joe's life because hey made a drunken comment that Joe took to be insulting to Marilyn. Years later, a crippled Toots was desperate to talk to Joe one last time at an old timer's game at Yankee and tottered over on his crutches...DiMaggio slipped out of the clubhouse without a word. Joe chewed out a young lady in an airport in about the most profane way possible (even called her the C word) because she worked for a memorabilia company he didn't like and dared to approach him. He more or less ignored his only child for most of his life and the poor guy became a drifter who ODed not long after his pop died. Joe was also an expert tightwad who coveted money like few others and stored huge piles of cash all around the world.
    The only really prominent ballplayer I can think of who rivals Joe for being strange is Steve Carlton. Cobb was cranky and sensitive, but he would talk to people...Williams acted out as a youngster and wasn't much of a husband or father, but mellowed into a long term relationship with a good woman in his old age and was always very generous (think Jimmy Fund). Hornsby, Bonds, and Clemens were big jerks, but that's not so odd.

    Tremendous ballplayer, basically did everything EXTREMELY well except draw walks. But he knew the strike zone and almost never Ked, plus your OBP is still going to be pretty good if you hit .381.

    BTW - 1937.
    Last edited by Dude Paskert; 08-10-2012, 12:28 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    The article also said Joe does not reek of garlic.

    Inarticulate, saw him in many interviews.............he fooled me.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Joe was a big strong guy, but fragile body, especially the legs, lots of injuries right from the start.
    These were injuries early season.

    1936, ankle injury pre season, missed 17 games regular season, first game played May 3rd.
    1937 shoulder injury missed 6 games, problem remained with shoulder but he did play.
    1939 muscle tear in leg April 29, missed 24 games played 120 that season.
    1940 injured right knee missed first 13 games.
    1946 injured left knee July 7, out of line up till August 2.
    In his first 5 seasons he made only one opening day game.

    1949 missed first 65 games, back June 28 for big series against Bosox. Leads Yanks to sweep, 4 home runs 5 runs scored and 9 RBI.

    Leave a comment:


  • EdTarbusz
    replied
    Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

    The only reason that DiMaggio is so low is because of his lack of longevity( which he could not control). And we already discussed how he should have been called up earlier In his prime, Joe D was as good a player as any.
    A call up wasn't an option for Joe DiMaggio. Also, interest from MLB teams took a nosedive after DiMaggio injured his knee in a car accident.

    Leave a comment:


  • pheasant
    replied
    Originally posted by leewileyfan View Post
    In evaluating players, I like to keep it as simple as possible. On offense, I am guided by the basic measure of Runs Created per Plate Appearance. Since 1901 only a dozen or so players have produced at .2000 or better over their careers. Most position players are appreciated more for offensive production than for runs saved. For defense, I use my own metric, adding defense runs to RC and using TPA as a denominator. Even at that, the number of players @ .2000 per PA stays around 14-16.

    Given that, I voted for 1939 as Joe DiMaggio's best season, because his RC/PA was 138/524 = .2634, outstanding. I was shocked to see that this was NOT the best number in MLB for 1939, with Jimmie Foxx producing at 149/565 = .2637.

    I am fortunate enough [old enough] to have seen all three DiMaggio brothers, both pre- and post WW II. This is where player evaluation gets really intriguing over Joe DiMaggio's career.

    Before anyone howls, let me be clear: Joe DiMaggio was a great ballplayer. His greatest gifts were an expanded sense of the "hitable strike zone" ... seeming to know instinctively what "near" pitches were still hitable. He was not a bad-ball hitter; but he expanded his personal strike zone by a few critical inches in which he knew he could make solid contact. He didn't draw a lot of walks because of this. He also hit for average because of this. And he was nearly impossible to strike out [for a power hitter, especially].

    He was also a very intelligent and heads-up base runner, who caught any opponent who was "napping" in the field.

    Joe was a solid defensive outfielder; but he was not the cream of the crop [speaking purely defensively]. In fact, of the three brothers, Dominick was the best defender all-around, with Vince equally gifted in the field; and Vince had a marvelous arm. Vince was a free swinger with erratic contact and volatile but undependable power or consistency. Dom lacked the power of either; but he had a great eye and made solid contact.

    Where would I rank Joe? Well, here are the RC/PA numbers from the elite [no defense runs factored in]. I'd leave it to individuals to apply whatever generational or park "tweaks" they favor; but here are the .2000 guys [along with a few who come close]. All are CAREER numbers:

    Ruth .2416
    Ba. Bonds .2294
    Gehrig .2254
    Williams .2236
    Hornsby .2136
    Pujols .2133
    Foxx .2090
    Mantle .2057
    J. DiMaggio .2045
    Greenberg .2034
    Musial .2015
    L. Walker .2006
    McGwire .1996
    Cobb .1925
    F. Thomas .1987
    Helton .1981
    Thome .1936
    A-Rod .1923
    Mays .1895
    Aaron .1831

    I believe that's 20 players. No defense factored in. No service credit. No park factors. But I can live with these twenty as "best" [1901-Present]. Joe DiMaggio is in there somewhere.
    Nice work, my friend. I swear that you just time-machined me back 70 years or so and narrated so eloquently an historical era.

    Leave a comment:


  • JR Hart
    replied
    Originally posted by leewileyfan View Post
    In evaluating players, I like to keep it as simple as possible. On offense, I am guided by the basic measure of Runs Created per Plate Appearance. Since 1901 only a dozen or so players have produced at .2000 or better over their careers. Most position players are appreciated more for offensive production than for runs saved. For defense, I use my own metric, adding defense runs to RC and using TPA as a denominator. Even at that, the number of players @ .2000 per PA stays around 14-16.

    Given that, I voted for 1939 as Joe DiMaggio's best season, because his RC/PA was 138/524 = .2634, outstanding. I was shocked to see that this was NOT the best number in MLB for 1939, with Jimmie Foxx producing at 149/565 = .2637.

    I am fortunate enough [old enough] to have seen all three DiMaggio brothers, both pre- and post WW II. This is where player evaluation gets really intriguing over Joe DiMaggio's career.

    Before anyone howls, let me be clear: Joe DiMaggio was a great ballplayer. His greatest gifts were an expanded sense of the "hitable strike zone" ... seeming to know instinctively what "near" pitches were still hitable. He was not a bad-ball hitter; but he expanded his personal strike zone by a few critical inches in which he knew he could make solid contact. He didn't draw a lot of walks because of this. He also hit for average because of this. And he was nearly impossible to strike out [for a power hitter, especially].

    He was also a very intelligent and heads-up base runner, who caught any opponent who was "napping" in the field.

    Joe was a solid defensive outfielder; but he was not the cream of the crop [speaking purely defensively]. In fact, of the three brothers, Dominick was the best defender all-around, with Vince equally gifted in the field; and Vince had a marvelous arm. Vince was a free swinger with erratic contact and volatile but undependable power or consistency. Dom lacked the power of either; but he had a great eye and made solid contact.

    Where would I rank Joe? Well, here are the RC/PA numbers from the elite [no defense runs factored in]. I'd leave it to individuals to apply whatever generational or park "tweaks" they favor; but here are the .2000 guys [along with a few who come close]. All are CAREER numbers:

    Ruth .2416
    Ba. Bonds .2294
    Gehrig .2254
    Williams .2236
    Hornsby .2136
    Pujols .2133
    Foxx .2090
    Mantle .2057
    J. DiMaggio .2045
    Greenberg .2034
    Musial .2015
    L. Walker .2006
    McGwire .1996
    Cobb .1925
    F. Thomas .1987
    Helton .1981
    Thome .1936
    A-Rod .1923
    Mays .1895
    Aaron .1831

    I believe that's 20 players. No defense factored in. No service credit. No park factors. But I can live with these twenty as "best" [1901-Present]. Joe DiMaggio is in there somewhere.
    great post

    I would have him over Foxx and Hornsby, just for his all around skills, but I can live with being #9. He certainly gets unfairly downgraded by many.

    Besides your great anaysis, I love the first hand knowledge of having seen him play. consider yourself lucky

    Leave a comment:


  • leewileyfan
    replied
    In evaluating players, I like to keep it as simple as possible. On offense, I am guided by the basic measure of Runs Created per Plate Appearance. Since 1901 only a dozen or so players have produced at .2000 or better over their careers. Most position players are appreciated more for offensive production than for runs saved. For defense, I use my own metric, adding defense runs to RC and using TPA as a denominator. Even at that, the number of players @ .2000 per PA stays around 14-16.

    Given that, I voted for 1939 as Joe DiMaggio's best season, because his RC/PA was 138/524 = .2634, outstanding. I was shocked to see that this was NOT the best number in MLB for 1939, with Jimmie Foxx producing at 149/565 = .2637.

    I am fortunate enough [old enough] to have seen all three DiMaggio brothers, both pre- and post WW II. This is where player evaluation gets really intriguing over Joe DiMaggio's career.

    Before anyone howls, let me be clear: Joe DiMaggio was a great ballplayer. His greatest gifts were an expanded sense of the "hitable strike zone" ... seeming to know instinctively what "near" pitches were still hitable. He was not a bad-ball hitter; but he expanded his personal strike zone by a few critical inches in which he knew he could make solid contact. He didn't draw a lot of walks because of this. He also hit for average because of this. And he was nearly impossible to strike out [for a power hitter, especially].

    He was also a very intelligent and heads-up base runner, who caught any opponent who was "napping" in the field.

    Joe was a solid defensive outfielder; but he was not the cream of the crop [speaking purely defensively]. In fact, of the three brothers, Dominick was the best defender all-around, with Vince equally gifted in the field; and Vince had a marvelous arm. Vince was a free swinger with erratic contact and volatile but undependable power or consistency. Dom lacked the power of either; but he had a great eye and made solid contact.

    Where would I rank Joe? Well, here are the RC/PA numbers from the elite [no defense runs factored in]. I'd leave it to individuals to apply whatever generational or park "tweaks" they favor; but here are the .2000 guys [along with a few who come close]. All are CAREER numbers:

    Ruth .2416
    Ba. Bonds .2294
    Gehrig .2254
    Williams .2236* EDIT [Williams should read at .2342]
    Hornsby .2136
    Pujols .2133
    Foxx .2090
    Mantle .2057
    J. DiMaggio .2045
    Greenberg .2034
    Musial .2015
    L. Walker .2006
    McGwire .1996
    Cobb .1925
    F. Thomas .1987
    Helton .1981
    Thome .1936
    A-Rod .1923
    Mays .1895
    Aaron .1831

    I believe that's 20 players. No defense factored in. No service credit. No park factors. But I can live with these twenty as "best" [1901-Present]. Joe DiMaggio is in there somewhere.
    Last edited by leewileyfan; 07-15-2012, 12:24 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • JR Hart
    replied
    Taking longevity out of it, DiMaggio has to go down as one of the most productive and talented players ever. And "death valley" hurt him considerably

    Leave a comment:


  • JR Hart
    replied
    Originally posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
    C'mon JR. The intelligent "nerds" over there are pretty similar to many of the "nerds" here and I suspect would have similar rankings. I miss those guys, they turned me from a homer to a pretty knowledgeable fan.

    I don't know any of them that ranked Joe outside of the top 20, but yes, I would agree with them that he isn't a top 10 player. I rate him behind Mays, Cobb, and Mantle among center fielders. Possibly Speaker as well, but not Griffey.


    Truth. I wonder what happened to some of those guys. Smarther, Stan, Yellowstone....and I forget a bunch of their names.
    it was a fun bunch and the banter was fun. ESPN ruined a good thing. This site however has has some great posters too.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bigfoot 88
    replied
    Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
    Too much Bill James. DiMaggio didn't walk enough for these losers. He also didn't play long enough. These morons don't know that he was held back in the PCL (unlike Williams) and not allowed to go to the majors at an early age. Oh yeah, and he couldn't control Hitler.

    I actually saw top 25-30 lists without DiMaggio. Without Joe freaking DiMaggio!!! They valued Darrell Evans and Ferriss Fain over DiMaggio because they got on base so much. I have baseball friends who don't post on the internet and I'd tell them of the downgrading of Joe D and we'd laugh and laugh.

    Joe DiMaggio was a non-parallel player and a baseball icon. It's good to see knowledgable fans herse, who look at ALL the ways to rate players, especially road/home stats.
    C'mon JR. The intelligent "nerds" over there are pretty similar to many of the "nerds" here and I suspect would have similar rankings. I miss those guys, they turned me from a homer to a pretty knowledgeable fan.

    I don't know any of them that ranked Joe outside of the top 20, but yes, I would agree with them that he isn't a top 10 player. I rate him behind Mays, Cobb, and Mantle among center fielders. Possibly Speaker as well, but not Griffey.

    Originally posted by Seels View Post
    You couldn't be more full of it if you tried. I really don't know why you exaggerate so much to prove your point, it just makes you look even more absurd to those who know better. No one ranks Evans or Fain over DiMaggio and you know that, you're just being difficult for the sake of it. There's a difference between not thinking DiMaggio is as good as Mantle or Williams (which he isn't) and thinking he's not as good as Evans or Fain; I don't know why you can't make this distinction.
    Truth. I wonder what happened to some of those guys. Smarther, Stan, Yellowstone....and I forget a bunch of their names.

    Leave a comment:


  • Myankee4life
    replied
    Dimaggio was a beast. I read somewhere that Dimaggio never hit a homerun to left center in his career. That's how far it was. I don't think a Yankee RH batter ever took it out LCF in OYS, or if someone did, it was very few. Had Dimaggio played in Fenway, he would have put up monstrous numbers.

    Leave a comment:


  • JR Hart
    replied
    Originally posted by pheasant View Post
    I'll agree that Dimaggio's peak hitting years beat Mays, mainly due to Dimaggio's incredible road stats. But Mays' fielding and baserunning more than make up the difference.
    I disagree DiMaggio was a fabulous all around player

    Leave a comment:

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