Joe Morgan vs Jackie Robinson

[3and2Fastball]

I am increasingly thinking that Jackie Robinson is one of the most underrated baseball players of all-time and that, as great as Joe Morgan was, that Jackie should be considered a better player than Morgan.

Joe Morgan had more stolen bases than Robinson, but he played in an era when stolen bases were a much more common occurence. Morgan never led the league in SB's, whereas Robinson did, twice....

A big part of Morgan's appeal is his on-base percentage, and yet Jackie had a better career OBP (.409 to .392) a much better career OPS (.883 to .819) and an equal OPS+ of 132

Jackie's career BA was a full 40 points higher than Joe's. That means when a player is on 2nd or 3rd, there is a much higher % of time that Jackie was knocking in the runner as opposed to taking a walk. Jackie's BA was almost 40 points higher than the league average, whereas Joe's was just 11 points higher. Their OBP was about equal in terms of differential to league average: Jackie's OBP was 62 points higher than league average, whereas Joe's was 66 points higher.

They were both terrific fielders, but Jackie was much more versatile, being able to play fantastic D at 3B, 1B and OF in addition to 2B (and he played SS in the Negro Leagues). Joe was a 2B who played OF, too

Neither was lights out in the postseason, but Jackie was better there, too and much better in All-Star Games

Morgan hit more HR's, but had a much lower slugging %

I think if you adjust for league averages, Robinson was actually much closer in ability to Honus Wagner than people give him credit for.....

[pheasant]

Jackie was much better with the glove than Morgan. I always thought that Morgan was overrated defensively. During their prime, they are of similar value. Morgan closes the defensive gap with his baserunning. But Morgan played longer, so he gets my vote.

[GiambiJuice]

I agree that Robinson was better than Morgan. Unfortunately due to the era in which he played, he didn't get his start in the Major Leagues until he was 28 years old. I think he was every bit as good a basestealer as Morgan, if not better. People have to realize that stealing 37 bases in 1949 was like stealing 80+ in Morgan's era. Jackie stole 37. The next highest total in the league was 26. The next highest after that was 12. SB just weren't prominent in that era.

If Jackie doesn't get held back for being a black man, and starts his career at the age of 21 or so, many people would view him very differently as a player.

[3and2Fastball]

Jackie was much better with the glove than Morgan. I always thought that Morgan was overrated defensively. During their prime, they are of similar value. Morgan closes the defensive gap with his baserunning. But Morgan played longer, so he gets my vote.

I can usually understand the longevity argument, but Jackie played until he was 37 and Morgan played until he was 40. I don't think that Jackie should be penalized for not making MLB until he was 28 years old! Jackie hit .388 in the Negro Leagues when he was 27

In terms of base running, I see no way that Morgan should be considered a better baserunner than Jackie Robinson. The higher stolen base totals are negated by league averages. Robinson was one of the greatest baserunners of all-time and in many ways changed the MLB game in terms of baserunning in a similar way to how Babe Ruth changed the MLB game with power hitting

[EdTarbusz]

Even if segregation didn't exist I think it's unlikely that Robinson's MLB career would have started when he was 21. I think it's more likely he would have spent his pre-war career in the PCL and not gotten a real shot at the Majors until 1946 or 1947 because of the war. After the draft started in the summer of 1940 Major League teams were reluctant to sign young single players because of their vulnerability to being drafted.

[pheasant]

I can usually understand the longevity argument, but Jackie played until he was 37 and Morgan played until he was 40. I don't think that Jackie should be penalized for not making MLB until he was 28 years old! Jackie hit .388 in the Negro Leagues when he was 27

In terms of base running, I see no way that Morgan should be considered a better baserunner than Jackie Robinson. The higher stolen base totals are negated by league averages. Robinson was one of the greatest baserunners of all-time and in many ways changed the MLB game in terms of baserunning in a similar way to how Babe Ruth changed the MLB game with power hitting

And that's a valid point. Jackie did get robbed. Had he played his entire career in MLB, he probably would have had the better career of the two players. I think Robinson could have been like an Eddie Collins, who was a very good all-around 2nd baseman. However, I cannot fill in the blanks for Jackie. Had Jackie started when he was 25, then I'd put Jackie over Morgan.

[PVNICK]

I may have been overhasty in selecting the last option, but Morgan is in my top 3-4 and Robinson is always 5-6. However Robinson is ranked by me based on what he did not what he may have done but for factors beyond his control. By peak certainly an argument could be made, or by comparing what they did from Jackie's age between 49-53, that Robinson was the greastest 2B of them all.

[GiambiJuice]

Top 5 seasons by WAR:

Robinson
9.3
9.3
8.1
7.1
6.7

Morgan
10.8
9.5
9.3
9.1
8.4

WAR per 162 Games:
Morgan - 5.94
Robinson - 6.88

[3and2Fastball]

Robinson played from age 28 through 37 in MLB. I looked on Baseball Reference and couldn't find an easy way to figure out Morgan's stats from age 28 through 37. It'd be interesting to compare those 10 years between them.

[GiambiJuice]

Robinson played from age 28 through 37 in MLB. I looked on Baseball Reference and couldn't find an easy way to figure out Morgan's stats from age 28 through 37. It'd be interesting to compare those 10 years between them.

Age 28-37

Robinson:
1382 G
5804 PA
.311/.409/.474
132 OPS+
58.7 WAR

Morgan:
1385 G
5913 PA
.281/.407/.455
142 OPS+
62.0 WAR

It's not really a fair comparison though, as Morgan had several years of Major League seasoning before his age 28 season, which Robinson didn't have. Morgan played almost 900 games and had about 4,000 Big League plate appearances BEFORE his age 28 season.

Robinson had more hits, doubles, triples, runs and RBI, and way fewer strikeouts

Morgan had a lot more walks and a lot more stolen bases (though I don't think he was any better of a basestealer than Robinson, he just played in a different era where SBs were more emphasized. In fact Morgan never once led the league in steals, which Robinson did twice.)

It's very close overall.

[Ubiquitous]

According to Michael Humphrey's metric Joe Morgan was the third worst defensive second baseman of all time. Only Larry Doyle and Steve Sax have more negative runs over their career. Robinson has the 42nd most amount of runs as a second basemen. On a rate basis Jackie is 23rd best all time and Morgan is 29th worst out of 212 second basemen that were in the field for at least 4,500 innings.

[GiambiJuice]

dWAR definitely gives Robinson a huge edge too.

[BondsOverBabe]

Morgan is a top 15 player of all time, Robinson is more top 30ish.

[BondsOverBabe]

It's not really a fair comparison though, as Morgan had several years of Major League seasoning before his age 28 season, which Robinson didn't have. Morgan played almost 900 games and had about 4,000 Big League plate appearances BEFORE his age 28 season.

Some would say Robinsonn was playing in a stronger league before coming to the majors

[9RoyHobbsRF]

I like both players, I think Jackie is very much under appreciated, while people seem to look for things bad about Morgan and ignore his truly great things.

In 1953, the NL scored 4.75 runs per team per game. In 1976, the NL scored 3.98 runs per team per game, that is a 19% difference in offense.

Morgan played in the second deadball era (60s) and one of the worst parks for offense in ML history - the Astrodome.

Being a LH hitting middle infielder is a rarity and while it its true the league in Jackie's time was not stealing very much, on the flip side there were a lot of slow slugging not too good defensive catchers in Jackie's time.

Morgan not only stole many bases in most years his SB-CS ratios were fantastic. At age 23 he stole 29 bases and was caught just 5 times, at age 38 he stole 24 and was caught just 4 times. In his heyday he had these ratios: 58-12, 67-10, 60-9. That was outstanding. Morgan hit as high as 27 home runs and 4 times topped 20, something Jackie never did. In one 26 HR year, Morgan hit 9 at home 17 on the road. Jackie hit 10 more career HR at home and slugged slightly better at home as well.

I think the numbers are close enough that Morgan produced as much or more than Robinson in a slightly less offensive era and for a few years in a less offensive park. I would take either one as the 2B on my team (or Collins, but NOT Hornsby).

My vote goes to Morgan.